Solar Voltaic Systems

[Shox Dr]

Thanks for the insight, Anthony.

here's an interesting article I've just found



Quote"Mark Dampier, head of investment at Hargreaves Lansdown, an IFA, points out that while Feed-in tariff payments are tax-free now, there is nothing to stop a future chancellor changing this.
Nor is it impossible for future ministers to cut tariffs.
"A return of 8pc a year sounds fantastic, but I am suspicious of anything backed by the Government," says Mr Dampier. "The idea of politicians guaranteeing anything for 25 years seems fanciful to me – you have just got to look at what they have done to pensions."





might make sense to get the one of the Co's who fit it free, and they get the feed in tarif.

 

[piman]

Hello all,

to me wind power needs to be D.C. so you can store when your demand is low and use the stored power for peak demands. So this really is only practical for a home user but the outlay for a reasonable sized unit plus batteries is likely to be fairly high. That and the need to have inverters on equipment that really needs A.C.. So I doubt if it would be economic anyway?

Alec

 

[ieezitin]

dose OXO make it taste better?

Pinman.

Not quiet true on the windmill (wind turbine) , they are very effective and efficient of producing great amounts of power at very low rpm and wind speed. A 40kw producer with a wing span of 100 ft will give 100% at 8 MPH. It stands 140 ft high with a foot print of around 200ft.

Renewable power generation is all about geography, topography and ambient available power sources. An example is southern California, I think only around 30% of CA energy comes from coal the rest is made up from Nuclear, solar, wind and dams. There is a shortage of power there true but that’s down to the state not investing in its power generating capabilities.

CA is sunny and windy hence the investment in solar and wind, the UK is cloudy but windy with ample water so wind, hydroelectric would be most suited.

Heres a link http://www.presscom.com/windfarms.shtml

 

[ieezitin]

the wall pink floyd

Shox.


His suspicions are well founded. I don’t trust governments mine or yours.

He also said this: "What's more, the technology is still in its infancy. You could spend a lot of money putting a system on your roof that in a few years time will seem dated and inefficient."

I don’t quite buy that line of thought. Example is if you purchase an array today that produces 110% of your power needs and is warranties for 20 years and your power needs do not climb higher how does that make it dated or inefficient. Old yes! But functional, I still have a turntable that I listen to Pink Floyd on. But that’s how I roll.

We all can quote percentage rates, its this its that, but one most important thing that’s never mentioned in this home generation thing is you are not reliant on a state run and administered power supply. You are at the moment hence good old Westminster has you buy your Twisle stick!.

Anthony.

 

[Shox Dr]

I'm off to generate some of my own wind. I'm off t'pub

 

[piman]

Hello Dr. Shox,

I hope you going to have some decent beer?

Alec

 

[Justme]

The governemnt gets the VAT on £30,000 = £5250

The VAT is only 5% so £1500 not £5250

1, There are plenty of better things to do with your money.

2, PV you are looking to spend what? £14-30k to have any meaningful output (without storage), if you are going to live in the property till you die you might see some benefit,

3, I have looked at wind and PV seriously and as things stand the maths just does not work in your favour, its a great idea but unless there are more substantial subsidies or serious price drops together with rising energy prices I cannot make the maths work in my favour enough to invest that kind of cash.

4, For "playtime projects" like shed lights/allotment power you can make it work & as the kit is relatively cheap ( or if you get it free) it can save a few£££ but not enough to power even teh background useage at home.

5, Puting it into real figures, you spend what £5-600 a year on electric maybe double if a heavy user.... about the cost of a 500-1000w wind system that only works on windy days or a total waste if a pv..... so 10-20 years worth of electric for a PV & you still cant run the cooker or kettle off it.......

1, Like? Where else can you get 8% for 25 years PLUS free power?

2, More like 12 years to recoup your outlay followed by 13 years of profit.

3, Your maths must be very bad

4, Shh dont tel my house. We ONLY use power made vis our solar panels & we run every thing bar the welder direct from the inverter.

5, see above.

 

[mike os]

my initial calcs were done on my needing 4-5kw 24/7..... (yes I really do use that much, some power hungry hobby's)

8% is only if you sell 100% back... ie never buy as far as I can make out this is not practically achievable.

13 years......not even sure I should comment.... why would I pay 13years of my electric bill this month....?????

kindly supply details... if it can be made to work I am all for it, but not with ridiculous outlays for little or no "immediate" return (espescially given teh current climate I would sooner have £££ in the bank in case I need it, even 50% return is no good is I need the reddies next year)

Personally I would love to go practically off grid, but it needs to be ecconomically fesable

 

[piman]

Hello Justme,

"Shh dont tel my house. We ONLY use power made vis our solar panels & we run every thing bar the welder direct from the inverter."

How much can you cope with at a peak demand, and what was the cost of the equipment, if I may ask?

Alec

 

[Rudi McAnichal]

Solar PV makes good sense for a remote dwelling with no grid connection and no large peak demands. Run the lights, TV, computer, etc from batteries + inverter. Wind and PV can go well together, as there is usually more wind in winter and more light in summer. Use oil, LPG or wood for heating and cooking, and keep a diesel gen-set for emergencies and to run the welder.

Capital costs per kW might sound high, until you try getting a price per mile to have the mains supply brought in.

For a typical UK town house with mains supply, the best thing you can do to save energy is to put 6 inches of insulation in the loft, and the second best thing is to add another 6 inches.

 

[brightspark]

Solar PV makes good sense for a remote dwelling with no grid connection and no large peak demands. Run the lights, TV, computer, etc from batteries + inverter. Wind and PV can go well together, as there is usually more wind in winter and more light in summer. Use oil, LPG or wood for heating and cooking, and keep a diesel gen-set for emergencies and to run the welder.

Capital costs per kW might sound high, until you try getting a price per mile to have the mains supply brought in.

For a typical UK town house with mains supply, the best thing you can do to save energy is to put 6 inches of insulation in the loft, and the second best thing is to add another 6 inches.

dont 4get the double glazing and the cavity wall insulation then put bloody trickle ventilators in windows and a vent 4 the gas in the door because all the condensation cant escape

 

[Justme]

He

How much can you cope with at a peak demand, and what was the cost of the equipment, if I may ask?

Alec

Our peak demand capability is 3kw (you could increase that in 3kw lumps at about £1.6k per time to 9kw). As we dont use elec to heat our water its more than enough.

Roughly we have spent about £6k. That looks a lot till you realise that it would have cost £12k to get mains elec here & then we would be paying a bill every quarter as well.

At this time of year we are making more than we need. In fact I am building a house using elec power tools using the spare power.


I can see why mike os cant make the sums add up. That is some serious power use. You need to reduce that before you even think about "greening" your power.

You save more by not exporting it & using it on site. You get 3p for exporting yet save 12p by not importing so your thinking that you need to export 100% to get the best financial result is wrong to the tune of 9p per unit.

The return on your investment should still work & in fact using more power is better for you as you still get paid the 41.3p on all of it AND get paid 3p on 50% of it under the deemed exported yet you would never export any as you have a high base load. Dont forget the savings on not buying the power as well. So in real terms you get paid 41.3p + 1.5p + 12p = 54.5p per kwh you make from PV (under 4kwp systems).

A 4kwp system is about £12-16k ish. To recoup that £16k at 54.5p per unit would take about 7.5 years at a nominal performance rate.


There are schemes coming on line to "pay as you save" so you can get a loan that is paid for by the savings you make. Then once its paid back you keep the payments.

 

[Alex.]

A report on the subject from the BBC's 'Working Lunch' programme-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8732725.stm and the company's website http://ashadegreener.co.uk/

 

[piman]

Hello Justme,

are you saying in paragraph six that the electrical area board will pay you just to generate power from PV, despite not actually exporting to them and you can also import for free? This sounds like Alice in Wonderland economics by the government?

I understand the cost of power to rural areas, but that is not the only fuel that we need to live our comfortable lives. Solar heating can provide hot water but in the chilly winters there is little heat available from the sun so it's oil or gas if you have limited electrical power. In reality it is not that green.

As someone said the best option is lots of insulation, but achieving high levels of insulation in older properties is not so easy both in terms of cost and the disruption to the occupants. The government doesn't seem to be following this line but still seems to pay excessively to individuals to pursue the very small gain in PV systems.

Alec

 

[rtbcomp]

The VAT is only 5% so £1500 not £5250

........

I think you'll find the VAT is 17.5% - it's the VAT on the cost of the equipment, the 5% rate is the VAT on domestic electricity.

 

[jugs]

That's incorrect- if the panels are producing 3kW, and your load is 2kW you will be exporting 1kW.

I agree that the power rating of wind turbines is not totally clear, but their output is entirely dependant on location/wind resource. I think you will find some turbines produce close to their rated power for the majority of the in very windy sites.

One thing that should be considered is the change in attitude if you are producing your own power- being able to compromise your energy usage to match what is being produced is a step towards less wasted energy.
matt

Anglesey can be a windy place & we have several wind farms, jan/feb 2010 was the coldest in 10 yrs, over the 6 weeks of high pressure weather, hardly a kW was produced & we relyed on Wilva nuclear power station running @ 95%.
Wilva is due to close next yr, the grid lines don't have the capacity, so looks like its back to power cuts !!!

Hello Justme,

are you saying in paragraph six that the electrical area board will pay you just to generate power from PV, despite not actually exporting to them and you can also import for free? This sounds like Alice in Wonderland economics by the government?

I understand the cost of power to rural areas, but that is not the only fuel that we need to live our comfortable lives. Solar heating can provide hot water but in the chilly winters there is little heat available from the sun so it's oil or gas if you have limited electrical power. In reality it is not that green.

As someone said the best option is lots of insulation, but achieving high levels of insulation in older properties is not so easy both in terms of cost and the disruption to the occupants. The government doesn't seem to be following this line but still seems to pay excessively to individuals to pursue the very small gain in PV systems.

Alec

For politicians its all about making quick fix /knee jerk decisions coupled with short term thinking + lack of understanding. (" I know what I'm talking about, last mth I was minister for sport, now I'm minister for power, next it will be health or prisons.").

Due to the turbulent winds in UK, on land wind farms have an average 23% output, offshore = 47%.

Tidal stream units 85%


see >
http://www.aweo.org/problemwithwind.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SeaGen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5Miv4NHsDo must watch

 

[piman]

Hello Jugs,

being a technical forum, does anyone know the size of the foundations needed for an offshore turbine, and how they are actually built?

The trouble with these renewable sources of power is the perception that they must be cheap or free which is far from the case in terms of commercial application. The other fact I found was that due to the variability of their output, 'spinning reserve' is held by conventional stations in case the demand exceeds supply so that they may quickly make up the slack. Basically this means generator stations running, consuming some fuel but not feeding the grid.

Alec

P.S., I like your Anglicisation of Wylfa :-)

 

[Justme]

Hello Justme,

1,are you saying in paragraph six that the electrical area board will pay you just to generate power from PV,

2, despite not actually exporting to them

3, and you can also import for free?
Alec

1, Yes
2, Yes
3, no you pay for energy you import but you dont have to import the power you have made so you get the 41.3p + 1.5p + you dont pay the 12p per unit for the power used as you have not imported it.

So lets say you make 100 kwh
You will get
Generation rate £41.30
Deemed export £1.50
Saved on not buying 100 units £12

Total Savings / income £54.80 instead of buying £12 worth of elec.

If you have a base load that can take all the power that you can make then you will never export. But you will still get paid on 50% of what you have made as a deemed export.

 

[Justme]

I think you'll find the VAT is 17.5% - it's the VAT on the cost of the equipment, the 5% rate is the VAT on domestic electricity.

I think (ok I know) you will find that the parts & labour of a MCS installed green system is only rated at 5%.

 

[mike os]

lower vat rate is applicable if installed by an approved & registered contractor, otherwise 17.5%