Small Businesses

[blenkie1]

So your doing proper gates for nearly as cheap as the cheap imports out of the thinnest stuff imaginable
How the heck did you make any money? If we work on you needing £100 min for labour and overheads per gate it don't leave much for steel and galv before your double the cost. Trying to pull even a 25 k wage is nearly impossible and if your gates are any good they should last twenty years or more
Compare that with a gate for someone in town across thier drive and it's a no brainer

The first gate I made for a farmer was just simple 50x50x3mm box 12' long. When I first went he had maybe 10 gates sitting in a pile all mangled all made from light tube made by IAE or Ritchies. He said he was paying just under £100 for them. Can't compete with that all galv as well. Trouble was some of them gates were not lasting a year the steel was so light I've seen thicker car bodywork! The thing is these have to keep cows in that probably weigh the same as a small elephant. What he wanted was gates that was going to hold them. The bulls simply push the gates out of the way or try to jump them. One of the bulls bulled a heifer that was only a year old. Had to get vet out. So destroyed farm gate, Vet bills and hassle what I charge is a bargin. He said one of the bulls tried to jump my gate (it was higher to his requirements) landed on top the gate bounced a bit but had no damage what so ever. Saved him money already. After that he replaced them all. It was easy money. It just a heavy basic gate make one and you have your jig to make the rest its just a production line. Nearly all standard sizes 8',10',12'. Got the steel at discount I was buying so much. Me and the wife spent a day cutting and then the rest of the time making. The hardest part was drilling 2 holes and making a catch. Was not bothered with gal so I just sprayed them to the colour he wanted.

From that one job it snowballed. The Vets were coming and seen how safe they were compared to normal gates and spread the word and other farmers seen them and wanted them made and then wanted other work done, trailers, feed barriers, stuff they cannot do or maybe too much hassle for them. Yes I heard they can be bad payers but touch wood I have not had any problems in fact some times they are chasing me! Yes a lot of farmers can weld but its normally to weld some hooks on or a small repair something thats really not worthwhile for me to do anyhow. I was welding/fixing combines the first year I started. Not got the overheads of a normal agri engineer so I can charge less. Started doing hose repairs the 2nd year after seeing what hose replacement cost. Most of it is just basic, simple work nothing hard. My biggest failing is I need a good press brake to start moving into other areas.

Kent, your business works for you with what you do and I wish you good luck in it but don't discount agri work someone has to do it and I can only speak from my experience but it worked for me and I started about 4 years ago. Work out whats near to you. If its all agri stuff try/start with that, if its forestry then head in that direction. A local blacksmith sometimes works for me because around here its all rural and just not enough work to keep him going.

 

[IrishDave]

Another way of doing it is just getting equipment as I go along I'm not going to be leaving my full time role to start up yet. Just want somewhere I can work away at bits and pieces at night if things take off then that would be great but for now its gonna be a hobby shop where I can do the odd job here and there

 

[blenkie1]

Don't give up everything and try and go at it alone. You'll end up in debt. Like I did. Still paying it back. Need a good 10k behind you to start up I would say.

I started with nothing and I mean nothing. Had an old maestro van which I used to get to work with, a little inverter welder, small grinder and 9" grinder but its hard. Had no savings but luckily we had a really small mortgage. Some of the jobs I did farmers paid for equipment. One paid for a mig welder and he got the VAT back and helped a lot. Think the thing is to keep working build your tools up and do jobs at the weekend/nights for extra cash/experience/contacts.

 

[blenkie1]

Yep I do some farming work to supplement my boat work. They always pay me no problem (say their skint and in a six figure overdraft - I just humour and say welcome to my world) but I don't have the hassle I have with Boat owners who many are just living in spam Valley and can't afford it, the ones who can argue over every penny since a boat is a luxury and they want the toy but dont want to pay for it.
I am really in the wrong industry as a marine engineer and would prefer the farm, hydraulic and fabrication stuff all the time. I also have no income in the winter from boats as it's seasonal and need To rely on my hydraulic hose work mainly.
I am also going in with a mate on his workshop so we can do bigger machines etc and eventually screw the boats back to the minimum since the majority of the owners are certifiable anyway, they don't go near the thing all year then they decide to go out for the day and boat won't start surprisingly. Then they call you at all hrs of the day and won't leave you alone, won't wait in a queue so end up telling them to **** off as I haven't got the patience with them anymore.

Yes funny old breed farmers and what you say is exactly right, skint, overdraft, the price of cows/sheep/pigs/hens not what it was, don't know how we are going to manage!!! One local farmer (young lad about 35) keeps telling me this (trying the guilt trip). Oh got a new car I said when I pulled into the yard. It was a nearly new Range Rover (to pull the horse box of course). The work he wanted done well it was his wife to be honest was stuff made for the new horse arena she was building. Was told his farm payment was over £50,000. But like I said no problems with payment. Dropped a bill off one day went to the garage to fill the van up and the cheque was already through the door when I got home

 

[Freddy0309]

My tuppence worth, be known for something doesn't matter if it's gates, agricultural, forestry, sculpture or anything else you can think of, figure out what and practice practice practice. Try and get your name out there in that field, attend trade shows in that industry build a rapport with people in that industry no matter how tangentially connected they are to it as they could either be a potential client or able to refer a client. That being said you should also try to have at least a passing knowledge in a few other fields as well. The trick is not spreading yourself too thin, but usually the only way you learn is by spreading yourself too thin.

also I seriously wouldn't underestimate the agricultural industry as it encompasses a huge amount of different clients/processes/and even industries plus word of mouth spreads very quickly across a very diverse section of life like vets, pest controllers, delivery drivers, people they meet at auctions etc etc etc

 

[dannyp]

a stock farmer can never have enough gates.......... there is allways more money for more gates

 

[Kent]

The first gate I made for a farmer was just simple 50x50x3mm box 12' long. When I first went he had maybe 10 gates sitting in a pile all mangled all made from light tube made by IAE or Ritchies. He said he was paying just under £100 for them. Can't compete with that all galv as well. Trouble was some of them gates were not lasting a year the steel was so light I've seen thicker car bodywork! The thing is these have to keep cows in that probably weigh the same as a small elephant. What he wanted was gates that was going to hold them. The bulls simply push the gates out of the way or try to jump them. One of the bulls bulled a heifer that was only a year old. Had to get vet out. So destroyed farm gate, Vet bills and hassle what I charge is a bargin. He said one of the bulls tried to jump my gate (it was higher to his requirements) landed on top the gate bounced a bit but had no damage what so ever. Saved him money already. After that he replaced them all. It was easy money. It just a heavy basic gate make one and you have your jig to make the rest its just a production line. Nearly all standard sizes 8',10',12'. Got the steel at discount I was buying so much. Me and the wife spent a day cutting and then the rest of the time making. The hardest part was drilling 2 holes and making a catch. Was not bothered with gal so I just sprayed them to the colour he wanted.

From that one job it snowballed. The Vets were coming and seen how safe they were compared to normal gates and spread the word and other farmers seen them and wanted them made and then wanted other work done, trailers, feed barriers, stuff they cannot do or maybe too much hassle for them. Yes I heard they can be bad payers but touch wood I have not had any problems in fact some times they are chasing me! Yes a lot of farmers can weld but its normally to weld some hooks on or a small repair something thats really not worthwhile for me to do anyhow. I was welding/fixing combines the first year I started. Not got the overheads of a normal agri engineer so I can charge less. Started doing hose repairs the 2nd year after seeing what hose replacement cost. Most of it is just basic, simple work nothing hard. My biggest failing is I need a good press brake to start moving into other areas.

Kent, your business works for you with what you do and I wish you good luck in it but don't discount agri work someone has to do it and I can only speak from my experience but it worked for me and I started about 4 years ago. Work out whats near to you. If its all agri stuff try/start with that, if its forestry then head in that direction. A local blacksmith sometimes works for me because around here its all rural and just not enough work to keep him going.

How much did you charge out per gate though? If your happy fair enough like. I do live very rural all the farmers know me, its not the fact they have welders just the case of those import prices. That said although there are a few beef cows here the calves tend to be sold on once separated as it high moorland and not rich enough.

 

[F.J.]

FJ did you find it a big leap from working on your own to employing someone? Think I would struggle letting someone else do the work and would have sleepless nights worying about cash flow to pay them, I have a lad labouring now and again and that can be bad enough.

I needed someone about 10-11 months before I actually took anyone one. I always found a reason to stay on my own but my wife and kids never saw me. I started off with an apprentice just to speed myself up on jobs both onsite and in the workshop. He was a cracking lad but ended up in jail because he like to ride nicked motor bikes apparently!
I then took on a 25yr old who started off well but only last 6 months as he was arrogant and as my customers slowly started to realise his work was crap (he was out in the van so I couldn't check his work although I shouldn't of had to)
Finally, the guy I've just got rid of was self employed and it was agreed that I'd take him on as he would hand over his customers. He only had two. Never had anything off one of them but was for ever being moaned at about him from the other. I got rid of him because my own customers didn't like him either. Luckily I have loyal customers though.
Come the end of the month I will be looking for someone else and hopefully another Come summer time.
I soon realised that two people can earn you more, speed you up making you more reliable to customers and also get more jobs in the door so although you may be scared initially, it is well worth having another one or two staff so you can focus on getting the work in and letting them get the work out.
What I found out though is loyal, skilled and competent staff may not come in the door first time round

 

[IrishDave]

The area I am in is rural but its also a town with lots of towns close by they tried to make it a city at one stage but it failed haha still it is a city if you look at on the map the size of it. Soon I will have a mig machine and other equipment and will be making new gates for granddad's farm I have already made two but word of mouth isn't spreading very fast just yet give it a few months maybe and hopefully things will pick up

 

[F.J.]

That's cool man where did you work as an assessor I'm actually on my level 3 at the moment can't wait to finish it haha would prefer to be working. Do you not have trouble finding people with the same drive in this field to work for you? a lot of guys in my class just want to work all day party the rest and with that their work suffers well I think so anyway. As for the quote I would live by it but its my family members are more afraid for me taking risks than I am myself

I worked for a comapny called Skill Solution but think they have changed name since I left. They are in Manchester and part of the chamber of commerce but ran by a bunch of number crunchers that don't care about values just results.
I don't think I will ever find the kind of person with the same drive I have although I pray for one every day. If my brother or dad could weld they would be working for me as when we work together on other projects we bounce off each other and get along really well. I think I will go through quite a few more staff before I find the right ones to stick around, that's life I think

 

[Kent]

Another way of doing it is just getting equipment as I go along I'm not going to be leaving my full time role to start up yet. Just want somewhere I can work away at bits and pieces at night if things take off then that would be great but for now its gonna be a hobby shop where I can do the odd job here and there

Far better than starting out with a big fat loan for the gear. Good idea to look at different ways of putting it into the business or renting it in. issue you might not have considered though is it might be better to buy it after VAT registering. 20% back on purchases means they pay you at the quarter ends early days if the turnover is still low you then write it down against tax slowly as an asset over its life (after its life you can sell it whatever is reasonable but anything over write down is then put back into the books) or sooner as an expense depending what it is

 

[IrishDave]

I needed someone about 10-11 months before I actually took anyone one. I always found a reason to stay on my own but my wife and kids never saw me. I started off with an apprentice just to speed myself up on jobs both onsite and in the workshop. He was a cracking lad but ended up in jail because he like to ride nicked motor bikes apparently!
I then took on a 25yr old who started off well but only last 6 months as he was arrogant and as my customers slowly started to realise his work was crap (he was out in the van so I couldn't check his work although I shouldn't of had to)
Finally, the guy I've just got rid of was self employed and it was agreed that I'd take him on as he would hand over his customers. He only had two. Never had anything off one of them but was for ever being moaned at about him from the other. I got rid of him because my own customers didn't like him either. Luckily I have loyal customers though.
Come the end of the month I will be looking for time one else and hopefully another Come summer time.
I soon realised that two people can earn you more, speed you up making you more reliable to customers and also get more jobs in the door so although you may be scared initially, it is well worth having another one or two staff so you can focus on getting the work in and letting them get the work out.
What I found out though is loyal, skilled and competent staff may not come in the door first time round

Too bad you aren't in my area man all I want to do is go far in the industry but when I do work for guys at nights I sometimes have to work with some of their employees roughly my age and they are ***** complete lazy b*****s don't want to do nothing for the guy even bad mouth the guy that gives them a wage no respect at all. In the last place I worked in it was my first year 16 years old and this other guy I was helping on the floor came in with a hangover and brought me down the back he turns to me and goes don't say anything and smashes the pipe bender dye on the floor so we couldn't continue with the handrails which was our primary work at the time. Its guys like that that give tradesmen a bad name so undeserving

 

[AndyStobbs]

Far better than starting out with a big fat loan for the gear. Good idea to look at different ways of putting it into the business or renting it in. issue you might not have considered though is it might be better to buy it after VAT registering. 20% back on purchases means they pay you at the quarter ends early days if the turnover is still low you then write it down against tax slowly as an asset over its life (after its life you can sell it whatever is reasonable but anything over write down is then put back into the books) or sooner as an expense depending what it is

You can claim historic VAT upto four years back (IIRC) on business purchases that have not been consumed, ie. You can get the VAT back on equipment but not stock (that's been sold since) or fuel for example.

 

[blenkie1]

For that first job? It would be about £150 for a 12' gate. Maybe could of charged more not sure its was one of the hardest parts for me to work out how much to charge and it was early days for me. He said he was paying just under £100 for the IAE/Ritchie ones. The steel would be maybe £60/70 maybe a bit more. But making them is simple Kent cut all the steel one day, make one, thats your jig and its just basic slot in and weld nothing simpler. You can make loads in no time. I would set up one to spray while the wife fitted the bits to the jig for the next one. No cleaning up any welds, cows are't fussy just needs to do the job. In fact the wife could of done the lot. What I have been told, make sheep handling/feeding equipment they go crazy for it. Securing sheds for quad bikes. They need it secure for insurance. Starting a lot with that. Farmers are a funny breed go to any farm sales and you will see them pay more for second hand stuff than what they could new

 

[F.J.]

Too bad you aren't in my area man all I want to do is go far in the industry but when I do work for guys at nights I sometimes have to work with some of their employees roughly my age and they are ***** complete lazy b*****s don't want to do nothing for the guy even bad mouth the guy that gives them a wage no respect at all. In the last place I worked in it was my first year 16 years old and this other guy I was helping on the floor came in with a hangover and brought me down the back he turns to me and goes don't say anything and smashes the pipe bender dye on the floor so we couldn't continue with the handrails which was our primary work at the time. Its guys like that that give tradesmen a bad name so undeserving

Sounds like a right ****! I have people popping in all the time to see if any jobs are going but you can see before they even stop walking up to you if they have the minerals or not. I'd love someone to be as passionate about my business as I am, it would only benefit them in the long run as I'd be more inclined to pay more or give bonuses more often

 

[Welderpaul]

Far better than starting out with a big fat loan for the gear. Good idea to look at different ways of putting it into the business or renting it in. issue you might not have considered though is it might be better to buy it after VAT registering. 20% back on purchases means they pay you at the quarter ends early days if the turnover is still low you then write it down against tax slowly as an asset over its life (after its life you can sell it whatever is reasonable but anything over write down is then put back into the books) or sooner as an expense depending what it is

If you buy machines when you are not VAT registered, then subsequently go VAT registered you can 'back-claim' the VAT. Up to a certain time limit - a year or so IIRC.

I did this.

 

[IrishDave]

I worked for a comapny called Skill Solution but think they have changed name since I left. They are in Manchester and part of the chamber of commerce but ran by a bunch of number crunchers that don't care about values just results.
I don't think I will ever find the kind of person with the same drive I have although I pray for one every day. If my brother or dad could weld they would be working for me as when we work together on other projects we bounce off each other and get along really well. I think I will go through quite a few more staff before I find the right ones to stick around, that's life I think

I understand what you mean by results instead of values I mean my teacher he is a great guy and all but I feel like I'm being bluffed through the course sometimes

 

[F.J.]

For that first job? It would be about £150 for a 12' gate. Maybe could of charged more not sure its was one of the hardest parts for me to work out how much to charge and it was early days for me. He said he was paying just under £100 for the IAE/Ritchie ones. The steel would be maybe £60/70 maybe a bit more. But making them is simple Kent cut all the steel one day, make one, thats your jig and its just basic slot in and weld nothing simpler. You can make loads in no time. I would set up one to spray while the wife fitted the bits to the jig for the next one. No cleaning up any welds, cows are't fussy just needs to do the job. In fact the wife could of done the lot. What I have been told, make sheep handling/feeding equipment they go crazy for it. Securing sheds for quad bikes. They need it secure for insurance. Starting a lot with that. Farmers are a funny breed go to any farm sales and you will see them pay more for second hand stuff than what they could new

£150 for a 12 foot gate? your hourly rate must be low?

 

[IrishDave]

For that first job? It would be about £150 for a 12' gate. Maybe could of charged more not sure its was one of the hardest parts for me to work out how much to charge and it was early days for me. He said he was paying just under £100 for the IAE/Ritchie ones. The steel would be maybe £60/70 maybe a bit more. But making them is simple Kent cut all the steel one day, make one, thats your jig and its just basic slot in and weld nothing simpler. You can make loads in no time. I would set up one to spray while the wife fitted the bits to the jig for the next one. No cleaning up any welds, cows are't fussy just needs to do the job. In fact the wife could of done the lot. What I have been told, make sheep handling/feeding equipment they go crazy for it. Securing sheds for quad bikes. They need it secure for insurance. Starting a lot with that. Farmers are a funny breed go to any farm sales and you will see them pay more for second hand stuff than what they could new

Your a pretty lucky guy to find a wife like that haha I hope one day mine will be the same

 

[IrishDave]

How much would you guys have charged for this my first job finished it last weekend. Took me close to 20 hours to complete making and fitting