Single power tool battery

[Craig-SM]

Yeah, battery manufacturers.




This is effectively already where we are in terms of manufacturing.

Basically every brand uses the same designs of cell from the same handful of far eastern manufacturers, in more or less the same arrangement, but for the mechanical design of the connection.

The small differences in battery chemistry for premium batteries from the likes of Milwaukee don't matter to the connection standard.




This is exactly it, it serves their needs very well, but acts as a barrier to consumer choice, and reduces the drive to compete on quality or functionality.

Which in turn allows the big 3 players to capture a disproportionate amount of new entrants by offering extremely cheap deals on kits of 2 common first tools, two batteries and a charger (often cheaper than the two batteries alone would be at RRP).

Having secured that customer, they can then act as rentiers because having bought into that brand, their customers are heavily disincentivised to switch due to cost.

If I could justify the expense there's quite a few tools where I know Milwaukee, DeWalt, or Ingersol Rand would be far better than the Makita I do use, but I am locked in by cost.

Hikoki/Metabo HPT do a ¾ impact wrench that puts all the other manufacturers to shame in terms of size and performance... But because they don't have the same range of tools or market penetration, it's been unable move the needle on sales.




But they could still have whatever battery shape they like (if they deemed it worthwhile to make their own batteries still, being festool they probably would).

All that's required is to have a specific agreed connector and latch, which would constrain only a tiny portion of the form factor, the part which inevitably ends up buried inside the tool anyway.

That's exactly like the standardisation of USB C




I don't understand how standardising the battery connector would impact on a wireless communication protocol.

But then I also don't understand why a battery needs Bluetooth to begin with.




Are there really meaningful differences in most of the core products at the moment?

I would argue not, If you buy a drill in red, teal, yellow, black & green, grey & red, green, blue, or neon green it will still weigh about so much, and drill holes in much the same way.

- Metabo HPT/Hikoki, Bosch, etc. don't really have a stand out product, or much market presence,
- DeWalt has nothing unique either, but stands out with sheer market power, being a very big name,
- Makita makes a few niche industrial tools, but only really stands out mostly by market power, as another big name.

There's then two differentiation strategies:

Cost,
- Ryobi makes everything a bit more affordably than everyone else,
- but that strategy is losing ground to "Fakita" and "Milfakee" as the Chinese OEM's start to sell decent products on an existing battery platforms directly,

Specialisation,
- Milwaukee has really invested in developing the widest possible range of speciality tools for specific trades, but the core products are still basically fungible with every other brand.
- Ingersoll-Rand makes the same range of manufacturing focused specialist assembly tools and absolutely massive impact wrenches as they offer in air-power.
- Hilti and Festool have really focused on unique products for a specific trade and optimising their other products for the trade who would buy into the system because of those unique products.
- Metabo (not HPT, the German one) makes truly excellent angle grinders, and thoroughly mediocre everything else.

So a common battery connector would change basically nothing in terms of the individual companies marketing and product development strategies.

But would:
- open the door for some of the under-represented brands to find a specialism if they wanted,
- allow consumers to mix and match to get the best tool (and best battery pack ergonomics) for each of their needs.




Dual battery 36V tools are a just a special case of 18V tools for connector purposes...

It would also be possible to have a shared mechanical connection standard for 18V/36V which uses a different pin arrangement for the two voltages, so the tool side connector determines which is used.

That would enable all dual 18V battery tools to also run on a single 36V battery, and allow an 18V tool to use a 36V battery as a double capacity battery (as per Hikoki's implementation).




As per my above comment the design details past the connector doesn't really matter for standardisation.

The manufacturer is then free to go wild with all manner of designs and form factors for the pack itself in a quest to sell their own "special-sauce" batteries to the people to whom it will make enough difference to pony up.

If the desire/need is there, including data pins as an optional feature in a standard would be easy, and could even use an existing industrial communication protocol to avoid conflict over what pinout to use, and take advantage of mass manufactured IC's.

The reality is that a standardisation attempt would most likely end with:
- 12V using an inserted connector to allow for the tiny "magazine style" batteries that justify 12V tools (a la Milwaukee)
- 18V and 36V would end up with a slide on type (similar to Milwaukee, Makita, DeWalt, Hikoki, Festool, Ingersoll, et al), quite possibly a shared standard for both voltages.

The standardised battery can be any form or size now so long as it the connections to the tool are the same in which case from your earlier comment there are 3D printed adapters so why bother creating a standard when you can take your Makita battery and connect it to a Milwaukee tool with the little adapter.

I’m happy with my battery platform and the tool range available. I'm pretty sure I wouldn’t be so happy if they became obsolete because they had to adopt a different battery platform.

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

If you are proposing breaking the manufacturing out into "Power Tools" and "Batteries", you can expect the price of both to rise significantly as a result.

I would certainly expect the batteries (usually the expensive part of the system for anything other than a casual user) to become further commoditised and decrease in price.

But there are a lot more options that just a drill.
Most brands have positioned themselves in certain sectors.

I don't honestly believe that there's a meaningful difference between brands in the core set of 20ish power tools that they all offer.

Some of the speciality brands have absolutely done something truly innovative for a market segment, but it's usually for a pretty niche use.

That's why when anything is standardised, we always end up with at least half a dozen.
As the saying goes - the great thing about standards, is there are so many to choose from.

There's a fundamental difference between voluntary and mandatory standards.

Take process piping and pressure vessels, there's one standard in each major market area (Eurocode and ASME), which are interoperable with each other, and a nested supplementary voluntary standard for Oil & Gas (API).

If they were not mandatory and all encompassing, you can absolutely bet that every industry would have established it's own norms in isolation, and it would massively increase cost and complexity in the supply chain.

Lots of complication, confusion and extra cost to the consumer. I suspect.

I can't see how it would create complication or confusion... It would impose a single constraint on manufacturers, but designing within constraints is just part of design.

I can see how it would drive short term cost to the consumer (through accelerating obselesence), but long term I would expect it to force greater competition, and lower total cost of ownership.

I’m happy with my battery platform and the tool range available. I'm pretty sure I wouldn’t be so happy if they became obsolete because they had to adopt a different battery platform.

That's the single biggest argument against the idea, the cost to people who already have an investment in tools.

There's strategies to mitigate that, like a transition period timed to match the average product lifespan, but it would still hit some users in the pocket.

 

[skotl]

I don't agree.

Almost all 18V power tool batteries can be interchanged between brands using DIY 3D printed (and increasingly injection moulded Chinese) adapters with not apparent loss of functionality to the tools.

The same appears to be true for 36V, but that market hasn't been as thoroughly explored by hardware hackers yet.

Because ultimately all the battery is a very simple subassembly... For all the marketing BS it does one very well understood thing, according to pretty much immutable principles.

If control over the battery pack was so critical to product development, we wouldn't see convergent development to the point of being basically fungible (but for the proprietary connectors).



It would take them as long as they are willing to waste collectively not putting a new better product on the market... This would not be all that long.

Ultimately it would force them to compete on functionality, quality and price; rather than deliberately locking consumers into a decision.

That would likely improve development as it reduces wasted effort on duplication of development in an area which is basically a solved problem.

In my experience of design and engineering, it's very rare that a constraint is an immutable barrier to getting the end result you want if it was achievable in the first place. Whilst a lack of constraints often makes the design process longer, and more expensive.

This is why "requirements engineering" and "systems engineering" are so important to complex projects and products.

This.
I went fully in on Dewalt, spending hundreds on tools and batteries. Then I started picking up Makita tools for cheap and got a couple of Makita-Dewalt battery converters (around £20) each. Then I got a couple of fake Makita batteries. Then I got a couple of Bosch tools and picked up some Dewalt to Bosch converters.

So yeah, I agree, if all the manufacturers could just agree on a single platform that would be great. But it's not difficult or expensive to share the love.

 

[MetalMonkey]

I would certainly expect the batteries (usually the expensive part of the system for anything other than a casual user) to become further commoditised and decrease in price.

I can't see that - you are adding an additional sector with all associated overheads which will increase the price.
Most tool brands do promotions and rebate options on batteries, which obviously will disappear further increasing the cost to the consumer.

The cost of power tool batteries is already broadly similar across brands, and they are already produced at scale and in competition with each other.
I don't believe standardising them is going to make them cheaper.

I don't honestly believe that there's a meaningful difference between brands in the core set of 20ish power tools that they all offer.

Some of the speciality brands have absolutely done something truly innovative for a market segment, but it's usually for a pretty niche use.

Core to who?
Makita have over 350 tools in just their 18v line up…

One can probably pick a few tools which will overlap most industries, but "core tools" is going to depend in what sector you work in.
Even with a basic tool such as a drill, there are several different models aimed at different price points and levels, and there is often a measurable difference between the brands.
Yes, all drills will drill a hole - but if you are using one day in day out, something as small as even a few grams of weight makes a significant difference.
Performance varies a lot. Ergonomics of the handle and controls matter.
Trigger response, for example is vastly different between brands - and that makes a massive difference if you are doing delicate work with an impact vs basic construction.

For many professionals, all this matters far more than the convenience of having interchangeable batteries.
Especially if in a team or organisation where it is likely they will all have the same brand anyway.

The cost of running multiple platforms is seldom an issue if you are using the tool professionally.
Its likely already paid for on the first job.

I can't see how it would create complication or confusion... It would impose a single constraint on manufacturers, but designing within constraints is just part of design.

Consider taking well established brands, with platforms and tools that have been in use for decades and obsoleting them, replacing them with the same brands and tools which are now incompatible with the existing batteries and tools people already own.
Sounds like a recipe for complete confusion and disaster to me.

If you are going to have a transition, you are asking manufacturers to produce, stock and sell multiple versions of 100s of product lines alongside each other.
Also sounds like utter retail chaos.

I can see how it would drive short term cost to the consumer (through accelerating obselesence), but long term I would expect it to force greater competition, and lower total cost of ownership.

The costs would skyrocket.
Manufacturing changes, admin, marketing, compliance. The carving out of a separate niche for battery supply - all of that takes money, and that will be going directly on the price of the tool and batteries.

Brands would now be competing on selling you an individual tool instead of drawing you into an ecosystem and building brand loyalty.
I see that as less incentive to be innovative and competitive, and more incentive for cost engineering, personally.

At the end of the day when you sit down and do a cost benefit analysis – who wins?
The trades (IME) largely don’t care. Industrial users will already have a tie in with one brand and a fleet maintenance contract.
So really we are talking about DIY consumers. I’d suggest that’s probably not a large enough market to be of consequence on its own to justify the investment needed.

 

[MattF]

Simple fact is that you usually choose the brand because they're either your preferred choice, else they cater to the area you require.

For example, I had Makita 18V originally, simply for convenience, at the time. I still have 3 of their 18V tools, & some batteries. Rest I gave away, & swapped over to Bosch 12V & 18V, as they've always been my preferred brand.

I don't like buying different brands unless I must, but if I must, adding a few batteries to the mix too isn't the end of the world.

 

[Craig-SM]

No doubt warranty would become a nightmare with the tool provider saying the fault was due to battery that was made by another manufacturer and no doubt clauses would state that so you would still buy your battery from the same manufacturer as the tool which would make the standardisation a farce.

 

[skotl]

No doubt warranty would become a nightmare with the tool provider saying the fault was due to battery that was made by another manufacturer and no doubt clauses would state that so you would still buy your battery from the same manufacturer as the tool which would make the standardisation a farce.

I don't know how you or they would even know that was a problem? TBH I've heard plenty stories of 3rd party batteries failing or being DoA but not sure I've ever heard of any causing a problem with tools
They're pretty simple, charging aside, internally and effectively share the same parts.

Could be wrong / misinformed though!

 

[gaz1]

as a company if you forced the same type of connection all i would do is build batterys that was in between the voltages like they did years ago

they was 12v then someone brought out the 14v

18v 24v 36v

now we are 40v

 

[Craig-SM]

I don't know how you or they would even know that was a problem? TBH I've heard plenty stories of 3rd party batteries failing or being DoA but not sure I've ever heard of any causing a problem with tools
They're pretty simple, charging aside, internally and effectively share the same parts.

Could be wrong / misinformed though!

To be honest I have no idea as I like to get the tool and fit the manufacturers battery knowing they are designed to work with each other. I don’t need to think about such an issue.

A quick Google brings this up https://www.protoolreviews.com/why-you-should-use-original-manufacturer-power-tool-batteries/

I know this aimed at cheap batteries but thus discussion has gone from a standardised battery format to a standard connection and latch system so cheap batteries would valid in that criteria

 

[gaz1]

what you want is a standadized system for the electric cars so that battery bank units can be pulled out and replaced instead of having to replace the whole battery unit

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

what you want is a standadized system for the electric cars so that battery bank units can be pulled out and replaced instead of having to replace the whole battery unit

Conceptually yes, although now that BYD has released vehicles with very good ranges that can charge from empty to full in about 8 minutes the impetus for that is reduced and awful lot.

In a related note, a power tool battery which could charge that fast would probably be able to peel me away from Makita.

 

[hotponyshoes]

In a related note, a power tool battery which could charge that fast would probably be able to peel me away from Makita.

Bosch will do 2a/h in 9 minutes.
Apparently the new 'tabless cell' packs can charge even faster (but they haven't released a charger yet)

I'd think most other brands are fairly competitive with that?

Not surprised they achieve the same sort of rate as cars as the basics are the same.
Bosch do say that super fast charging reduces battery life though. Be interesting to see if cars start failing quicker as they push the charge speeds up?

 

[Turbo]

Bosch will do 2a/h in 9 minutes.
Apparently the new 'tabless cell' packs can charge even faster (but they haven't released a charger yet)

I'd think most other brands are fairly competitive with that?

Not surprised they achieve the same sort of rate as cars as the basics are the same.
Bosch do say that super fast charging reduces battery life though. Be interesting to see if cars start failing quicker as they push the charge speeds up?

Li ion don't like fast charging and it's better to give them a slow charge regularly to extend their life.

 

[Craig-SM]

Li ion don't like fast charging and it's better to give them a slow charge regularly to extend their life.

Isn’t that for fully charged so they get around it by 80% fast charge then trickle to full. I know phone batteries as well as laptops do this to extend battery life. Milwaukee Forge batteries are charged on this principle with the Supercharger wth a 6ah at 80% in 15mins and fully charged 10 mins later. The bigger Forge batteries have active ventilation too to cool the battery while charging. Milwaukee claim these batteries have a longer life over their other batteries.

 

[jmp49]

The standardised battery can be any form or size now so long as it the connections to the tool are the same in which case from your earlier comment there are 3D printed adapters so why bother creating a standard when you can take your Makita battery and connect it to a Milwaukee tool with the little adapter.

Because sooner or later your going to try to use said tool in a tighter space, where the extra 50mm of height created by the adaptor hanging off the bottom makes it clumsy or too big to fit.

I have one parkside tool (a nibbler) and a adaptor to use ryobi batteries on it, purely because I bought into ryobi's system a long way back and have lots of their stuff but ryobi dont make a cordless nibbler (they make a offset shear, but no nibbler), but the adaptor hanging off it makes it more unwieldy, physically longer and its more fragile.
If Ryobi ever do launch a nibbler, I'll probably get it and give the parkside one to a friend on that battery system for this reason.

 

[Craig-SM]

Because sooner or later your going to try to use said tool in a tighter space, where the extra 50mm of height created by the adaptor hanging off the bottom makes it clumsy or too big to fit.

I have one parkside tool (a nibbler) and a adaptor to use ryobi batteries on it, purely because I bought into ryobi's system a long way back and have lots of their stuff but ryobi dont make a cordless nibbler (they make a offset shear, but no nibbler), but the adaptor hanging off it makes it more unwieldy, physically longer and its more fragile.
If Ryobi ever do launch a nibbler, I'll probably get it and give the parkside one to a friend on that battery system for this reason.

If you had a standardised battery all your Ryobi and Parkside tools would become obsolete.
Even with a standardised battery format you’d still have compromises and no doubt that would be more evident in the brands that don’t have as big a market share who can’t bring as much clout to the table when determining the standard. Some of these smaller brands may disappear altogether without their customers being tied to their platform, instead buying cheap Chinese knockoffs with the ergonomics of a brick and poor reliability so they become throwaway.

 

[jmp49]

I dont care if they are obsolete, I'm tied to the battery system by my investment in it so far not the brand itself. I dont care what brand it is as long as it just works reliably when I pick it up and I can just snap a battery in it for the job in question.
Some of the ryobi's Ive worn out after years and replaced with the same tool or newer upgraded versions, they're not the finest quality, just consistent.

On ergonomics and quality, well, I bought the parkside because they offer a tool that ryobi doesnt in its range.
I might have bought a milwalke fuel breaker in place of the ryobi heavy one if they used a standardised battery pack. I wouldnt buy the crappiest cheapest option, I'd just buy the one that suited my needs best for the situation, without having to have a fragile plastic adapter getting in the way. I havent bought into that tools that use a different voltage route that ryobi has tried to push too, if it doesnt run off the 18v, its of no use to me, it'd be like starting anew and throwing all my current investment in place in the bin.

I think practically, the first step would be a standardised battery connection, so that any charger can be used to divorce the oem battery from the tool. It'd be fantastic if it was based on usb pd somehow. This is not tied to one battery voltage then, since the device can negotiate its own voltage during the charging and have a inbuilt buck coverter to step it up, this is standard practice in a lot of places.
Its worked for phones despite the gnashing of teeth from phone manufacturers unless you bought a iphone as Apple are still figuring out how they can pay lip service to the standard by bundling adapters, and now we have usbc on everything, battery banks come with the right leads etc. Even my old macbook pro managed to charge with a usb-c, as the standard is most definitely not for low power devices. Of course each major change to macbook's means all the connectors change according to their whim and you have to buy new docks, charger etc. My current thinkpad is charging off a usb-c charger as I type.

The reason these arguments against standards exist is because they benefit the large brand you are locked into, not the consumer, and they've made a good job of spreading the falsehoods around the globe to oppose this.

 

[MattF]

The reason these arguments against standards exist is because they benefit the large brand you are locked into

No-one is locked into any brand. The only limiting factor is how much a person is willing to pay to get exactly what they want or need.

 

[jmp49]

Exactly, you can always break out of brand investment by spending a shed ton of money rebuying what you already bought, with slightly different shaped connections to the same analogs of components.
So the idea is to keep you tied in by the money it costs to change, which would evaporate if that bar was removed, ergo benefiting you to pick and choose what specific tool for each task, vs the larger brands loosing sales when a compettitor offers a better tool for the same function.
So its about removing choice by financial stick. How does that benefit us as consumers?

 

[Craig-SM]

By your own example it’s not the big brands as you stated both Ryobi and Parkside but then go on to say that you don’t care if they’re obsolete. I can’t see any logic in making your tools obsolete so you can buy into another platform instead of buying a Parkside battery and charger.
I currently have 3 battery platforms if you include the USB-C ones and don’t see an issue. Maybe I’m lucky into buying into a brand that covers all my needs for the majority and only recently diverging from that brand for cordless garden tools that were better. The USB-C isn’t universal either as some chargers are too powerful for smaller items so you have to plug it in elsewhere and visa versa.