Single power tool battery

[jmp49]

USB-C devices that obey the standard negotiate their charging rate. Some items are too powerful for the chargers to negotiate at the correct rate to charge at max speed, but they charge at the rate the charger is capable of all the same. It really is universal.

I consider Ryobi a larger brand, you recognize their name, the yellow colour, they work consistently and the after sales service is pretty good (have RMA'd a few in the guarantee period and just got new or rebuilt tools). Parkside we know because we see them in the centre isle of lidl's when being forced to go out shopping for food, near the w5 hand cleaner and other stuff. I'm tied into the Ryobi brand by their bespoke battery connection & chargers, same as every other big brand.

I dont have a parkside battery charger or battery, I have just ryobi chargers dotted around in different areas and throw the batteries in them to charge, so for me its ergo the generic standard in my workshops. The point is I bought the tool because I knew I could adapt the ryobi batteries to it, but since doing this I've found there's disadvantages to using a adaptor that everyone seems to be not mentioning. So I prefer to buy a tool thats natively Ryobi if its available, even if its not the best tool of that type out there.

Yeah if a unversal battery for powertools comes about, I'll loose some investment, but I'll migrate to it over time as the batteries wear out, and in a few years I'll be happy this happened if it does.
Same deal with Ryobi blue 18v vs Green one+, I started with the Ryobi 18v blue that used nicad's, but the One+ lithium packs kept the same connector shape. So I could upgrade to the one+ packs and keep the same tools (I still have some of my original blue nicad tools). I dont mind the nicad chargers are no good nor the batteries, because the shape of the battery pack was compatible it stopped the need to upgrade everything just because of shape.

I dont recall complaining about the investment in bespoke laptop chargers when they moved to USB-C compliant charger, even though it obsoleted some older supplies I have. I'm just happy I can charge my Thinkpad from any USB-C compliant charger, and it can charge any usb-c compliant device.

 

[MattF]

I really can't see an issue. You need batteries, you buy them. You need tools, you buy what suits. Spending an extra few hundred quid when one is likely already several grand into tool systems is merely another outlay, like buying another tool you need.

 

[jmp49]

So you walk in the workshop and you need to charge a battery. But the milwaukee charger is in the other workshop, but the ryobi one is here. So you have to go where the charger for that one tool is to charge it. Oh crap its back at home and I'm in the van and the thing goes flat mid task, but there's only a 12v->ryobi charger hardwired in that and the milwaukee is back home in that other workshop. Sucks to have deviated and bought a tool from a different battery system in these circumstances.
So its not just a money thing, its a convienience & usability thing. As I said, I have ryobi chargers dotted around the fixed places I do stuff, and over the years I've bought bundle deals just to get the battery in the deal and got extra ones. My lad bought me a sander with 4ah battery and charger for 45e on a special deal, I've already got the sander itself and dont need two, so he flogged it on for the same price as the special deal & I kept the charger for charging two batteries at the same time. I aint several grand into any tool system either, far from it, short arms and deep pockets me, special deals, secondhand buys etc.

I would like one battery standard for all my power tool devices and have outlined the advantages I think it would give me but I'd like to be able to choose the tool brand but are locked in by my choices, and I've pointed out where having a common standard has improved this same scenario (USB-C) despite the industry PR protesting it. I've tried adapters to solve this for myself, but they have their own disadvantages.

On the contrary I dont get what the advantages for NOT having a common battery connection standard between brands that benefits the buyer and not the vendors that sell tools/batteries. But each to their own, if you want to continue the mess that is the current situation its your choice too.

 

[Craig-SM]

That’s it. There is no mess. My tools work on their batteries. I don’t need the wheel to be reinvented because someone else bought into the wrong platform or was organising enough to make sure they had enough power in their battery to to do the job or at least have a spare battery if they didn’t have a charger.

As for the USB-C, first it’s just a cable to connect between device with a built into it and secondly lots of equipment became redundant when it became the standard be they lightning, micro USB or bespoke port. It did increase sales though as people had to renew perfectly good equipment as it was no longer compatible.

It doesn’t really matter how much you spent on a platform if they become redundant due to a change in battery standard as they still have to be replaced and old stuff becomes worth a fraction of what they were even though perfectly usable.

 

[MetalMonkey]

I would like one battery standard for all my power tool devices and have outlined the advantages I think it would give me but I'd like to be able to choose the tool brand but are locked in by my choices, and I've pointed out where having a common standard has improved this same scenario (USB-C) despite the industry PR protesting it. I've tried adapters to solve this for myself, but they have their own disadvantages.

We have had USB as a standard since the 90s. About nine different versions and nine different connector styles in that time.
USB-C will be the "standard" until the next one comes along, and you will be back to square one.

On the contrary I dont get what the advantages for NOT having a common battery connection standard between brands that benefits the buyer and not the vendors that sell tools/batteries. But each to their own, if you want to continue the mess that is the current situation its your choice too.

The main advantage is it gives a brand total control over their platform. That can lead to some poor decisions but also lots of innovations, but the consumer has the choice to pick a platform that suits their requirements.
If a common standard is adopted it means imposing limitations on what can be achieved. It means being stuck with the decisions (and quirks/design faults) with no other options available.
You will also see the larger players determining the direction of travel and everybody else will have to play ball - and when they decided the current "standard" doesn't fit with what they want to do there will be a new "standard".

I'm on the Hitachi/Hikoki platform, and one of the big advantages for me is the fact one battery can cover all the tools made since about 2012 to present in both their 18v and 36v line.
The basic chargers are about £17 so its no hardship to dot them around wherever I need them.

A move towards a standardised platform would lose that backward compatibility and likely force me towards buying into either all 36V or all 18V tools, or running two different "standards" with multiple batteries on each.
If they came out with some sort of universal multi voltage battery that supports every tool at every voltage to solve this issue, then with all that fancy electronics in the BMS one can expect them to be significantly more than I'm currently paying.
Now I'm sure if it was mandated and licenced and eventually adopted and refined - it could be work. But thats a lot of effort and cost in R&D and manufacturing (which would be passed on to the consumer of course).
All that just to get back to a situation I'm already in? Only now I could buy a mishmash of different coloured power tools in different boxes which still don't clip together.

 

[zx9]

There is no way I would willingly buy power tools that use USB charging ports, pocket fluff does enough to muck up a USB C port, saw dust and metal fragments would be bad news.

 

[hotponyshoes]

There is no way I would willingly buy power tools that use USB charging ports, pocket fluff does enough to muck up a USB C port, saw dust and metal fragments would be bad news.

I think he's mentioning usb-c as a comparison, not suggesting it should be used for charging a tool battery?

No reason why a usb socket on a battery would be a bad idea though (as an extra)
Would allow you to charge a phone or slow charge the battery from a wall socket!

I think usb-c is a maximum of 5amps though so quite a way off a 16amp fast charger

 

[jmp49]

USB-C is a maximum of 240w, it was capped at 100w for USB-C pd, but now the device can negotiate up to 240w in the extended power range (EPR) specs. PD is rated to negotiate up to 24v, and EPR 48v, but all are backward compatible to any usb-c device because they only supply the extended voltages after negotiation.
Each iteration fixed issues that came about after a few years with the previous ones, not only size, but also lifespan in insertions, which side of the plug/socket was designed to wear out first (ie I think it was first done on micro that the bending element of the pins were moved to the plug rather than the socket, so the plugs would break first sacrificially). But each issue of the standard was designed by a consortium of experts from industry, not one controlling company.
You can also get usb-c rugged versions, with IP67 ratings and automatic dust covers for dirty environments and more robust components for rough handling, I dont think its beyond a tool builder to make a cover that shuts when you take the plug back out, the ones everyone knows from on phones are the bottom of the barrel in terms of quality and ruggedness.
Also by compatibility I'm taking the shape of the battery plug into the tool. Adaptors prove its mostly just making stuff that fits nothing from other manufacturers. And the battery ecosystem means that large manufacturers already dominate in decisions on what system to buy into, your not going to buy a cordless tool system from a smaller manufacturer that only has a drill and a jigsaw if you want to plan longer term.

For innovations, the only real difference in batteries as highlighted way back seems to be in higher voltages and battery chemistrys. You could have a 18v standard, a 36v one, 48v etc. That's almost how it happens now anyway, you buy tools to suit what battery voltage your on and have the chargers etc for.

I for one would if offered buy into a tool that took universal packs, even if it was slightly more expensive, buy that in preference to one that has vendor lockin on the shape of the packs. But they're never going to offer this willingly because it looses a lot of advantages to the manufacturers to lock in consumers.
Metalmonkey youve done the same sort of thing as me, I started with ryobi nicad's, and stayed with them for the lithium changeover because they kept backward compatibility on the tools & I have tons of the chargers after deals dotted about.
So now you always buy hitachi because you have that ecosystem in place. Even if you knew a manufacturer made a better version of the tool you wanted, you'd still buy hitachi because of that battery standard lock-in you've opted into.
Yeah we're both going to be in the poo slightly if this comes about, but it will be glacial in pace if it ever does anyway.

I think to take the usb-c example, compare it to how mobiles were years ago, you had to find weird snap on battery connectors for edge connectors that took a bespoke plug themselves (nokia 9000i), then edge connectors or barrel jacks with different sizes and no standardisation on voltages etc, and if you forgot a charger you'd be asking round the office who had a nokia charger to suit x model, today you just grab a usb-c compatible one, and theres adapters between each version of usb if you need the odd use case or backwards compatiblity.

 

[Bravheart]

For those that are promoting printed ùadapters for different platforms I was lead to believe, perhaps falsely, that some of the big manufacturers (especially Milwaukee) had some form of two way conversation between tool and battery that kept batteries from overheating and excess discharging therefore losing their memory function and not charging again. Was this just salesman bulls**te?

 

[Craig-SM]

For those that are promoting printed ùadapters for different platforms I was lead to believe, perhaps falsely, that some of the big manufacturers (especially Milwaukee) had some form of two way conversation between tool and battery that kept batteries from overheating and excess discharging therefore losing their memory function and not charging again. Was this just salesman bulls**te?

They do, it's called Redlink.

 

[jmp49]

Milwaukee moved the battery management from the battery pack to the tool itself for the M18 fuel series onwards, and in them the battery pack monitors its voltage and sends a signal to the tool to shut down, so if you use a pack without this built in, the tool will just run it until its too flat to recharge unless the adapter is built with a low voltage protection board. This vid mentions the adapter issue while delving round testing the packs. The hotwheels adapter's also found this out.
"Innovation", or protectionist design changes to try to ruin the adapter makers day, you decide.

Ryobi battery management is still on the battery pack itself. I've changed them in the past to fix broken packs as they are available from the usual far eastern suspects as repair parts (as are the case parts, individual cells etc).

 

[Bravheart]

Milwaukee moved the battery management from the battery pack to the tool itself for the M18 fuel series onwards, and in them the battery pack monitors its voltage and sends a signal to the tool to shut down, so if you use a pack without this built in, the tool will just run it until its too flat to recharge unless the adapter is built with a low voltage protection board. This vid mentions the adapter issue while delving round testing the packs. The hotwheels adapter's also found this out.
"Innovation", or protectionist design changes to try to ruin the adapter makers day, you decide.

Ryobi battery management is still on the battery pack itself. I've changed them in the past to fix broken packs as they are available from the usual far eastern suspects as repair parts (as are the case parts, individual cells etc).

Thanks, interesting, he said he was going to test other makers for similar does anyone know if other platforms do the same or do all the rest still cut out at the battery?
Milwaukee aside I've a couple of other platforms I would like to buy battery adapters for namely parkside batteries in ryobi tools. Mainly for mickey mouse jobs I'll leave the heavy lifting to the Milwaukee.
If so where's the best place for supplies?

 

[cheb]

I use genuine and knock off batteries on genuine Makita tools, Fakita tools and others via adapters. The only problem I've had was a genuine Makita battery not working on three terminal Makitas, it worked ok on two terminal Makitas, Fakita and adapters. One day it decided to work on all of them again.

To me it's fairly obvious when a battery is nearly run down and time to change batteries. I also label and date mine. Excluding li-ion batteries, all my batteries, Nimh, Nicad and the like have lasted about 7 years. Left on the charger, left in the tool, part charged and used, fully charged and used, run right down, whatever, they've lasted about 7 years.