Siegen 150 wiring help

[Filcool]

Hi I was recently given a siegen 150 mig welder as a repair project,it needed a new gun which I had a replacement for so have done that,the front wire feed knob had been broken off so I went to maplins and got a replacment potentiometer and soldered it on and that's working,
The sticky bit now is the power switch,it only worked on 2 of the power positions but welded well,so I thought I would replace it as the original looked like it had been slightly getting hot and melted and thought that was the problem,I have bought which I think is a replacement dial but after numbering all wires and putting back together Ive now only got 1 power setting so think I've got something wrong or switch is numbered in a different way,I know this has been asked many times as did look through old posts but haven't been able to find an answer to help,so sorry if it's all been gone through before.
I've taken some pics if it helps at all?

 

[the snooper]

at a guess you've got the wrong switch

 

[mike 109444]

Think Mr snoop has hit the nail on the head !
I assume that the power selector also has the ON/OFF as part of it ?
You could have that on a separate switch and get a one pole 8/6/4 (depending on number of power settings ?) way rotary switch, see 1st pic.
If the transformer is wired as per 2nd pic then that's no so easy.
There is also a good video on youtube of a guy taking a rotary switch apart so you can get a better understanding of how they work.

 

[Filcool]

Hi,thanks for getting back to me,the original power switch went through 0,1,2,3,4 on front panel,the new switch is numbered 3,1,0,2,4 and both have 12 terminals,I understand some electrical things but can't figure this out,I wired it up as per old switch along with the bridge cables but no joy ,would the front layout of numbers on new switch require me to wire it differently,
you say wrong switch,in which way do you think it's wrong,
there was a lot to choose from so it maybe is as I don't fully understand them
Thanks for any advise

 

[mike 109444]

Hi,thanks for getting back to me,the original power switch went through 0,1,2,3,4 on front panel,the new switch is numbered 3,1,0,2,4 and both have 12 terminals,I understand some electrical things but can't figure this out,I wired it up as per old switch along with the bridge cables but no joy ,would the front layout of numbers on new switch require me to wire it differently,
you say wrong switch,in which way do you think it's wrong,
there was a lot to choose from so it maybe is as I don't fully understand them
Thanks for any advise

That's the issue. If you look at the first pic I posted it is quite straight forward how the "transformer is switched but the second pic shows that part way through the switching range it has to switch 1 to 2 as well as the 3,4 ,5 !
It MIGHT be possible to use the new switch BUT you would have to know exactly how the original was to operate.
If you follow this link http://www.saelzer.com/ and look at the "rotary cam switches" (download catalog) and see just how many options there are !!! I would have posted the catalog but at 92 pages it's a bit big.

 

[mike 109444]

One of many post on this subject http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/voltage-select-switch-puzzle.52105/
All may not be lost though as it MAY be possible to have a combination of rotary and a HI/LOW switch.
If you can separate out the wires in your post number 1, 3rd pic, take a good pic then for "test" purposes the welder could be connected up as a single power setting. This could then allow testing of each of the power levels one at a time by hard wiring each power level using choc block. NOTE YOU NEED TO MAKE SAFE ANY NON CONNECTED TAPPINGS AS THEY MAY HAVE MAINS ON THEM.

 

[Filcool]

Thanks for trying to help,
If you look at my original pic,
No.10 is live cable from plug
No.12 is neutral from plug
No.11 is a neutral fan power?(Also other wires heat overload)?
No.9 is a live fan power?(also other wires heat overload)?
No.6 transformer wire
No1.transformer wire
No8. Transformer wire

Have wired up a block connector

Joined 10 to 9,then 11 and 12 and then jumped a live 10 across to a separate terminal for 6 and that gave me fan power,wire feed active and 1 power as when trigger held and tapped earth clamp it sparked up,but as for where to go next I'm unsure,would swapping no 1 for no 6 give another power level or how does it work?
Thanks for now

 

[mike 109444]

Thanks for trying to help,
If you look at my original pic,
No.10 is live cable from plug
No.12 is neutral from plug
No.11 is a neutral fan power?(Also other wires heat overload)?
No.9 is a live fan power?(also other wires heat overload)?
No.6 transformer wire
No1.transformer wire
No8. Transformer wire

Have wired up a block connector

Joined 10 to 9,then 11 and 12 and then jumped a live 10 across to a separate terminal for 6 and that gave me fan power,wire feed active and 1 power as when trigger held and tapped earth clamp it sparked up,but as for where to go next I'm unsure,would swapping no 1 for no 6 give another power level or how does it work?
Thanks for now

That should give another power level. If before you disconnect your first connections, you get a meter. Set it to DC volts and clamp the black lead of meter to welder work ground clamp and red lead of meter to the welding tip (weld wire feed roller released!) now when pulling trigger you should see a reading of between 12 to 28vDC. Note this reading and then connect up next transformer wire to check and repeat the test again noting reading.
From the list you have given it looks like you only have 3 power settings ! which I don't think is correct ?
The pic below is of a transformer (before) I rewound and you can see that the tappings of the transformer enter it in an order. You should be able to see similar on your transformer. ( note this machines transformer can be jumpered for 220 OR 240 input hence extra wire.) It is a 6 power level welder with no ON/OF on the selector (separate on/off switch) The pink sleeve is for the over temp sensor burred in the transformer.
What is the "heat over load" you mention in your list ??

 

[Filcool]

Hi,did try another wire in no.8 and that did give me another power level so that is back up to the original 2 levels I had before repair,no.9 has a transformer wire coming from it along wire a bundle of other wires,but when trigger pulled I only here a internal clicking and no wire feed,I also tried no.1 and same clicking and no feed,there should be 4 settings and I think wires no.1 and no.9 should be the other levels but they don't seem to work,maybe that's why there was only 2 settings before,I just assumed switch was faulty,
There would only ever be 1 transformer wire attached and live at one time,is that correct?
Assuming it's not the switch what would case 2 power levels to not work,internal coil problem?

 

[mike 109444]

As you say there would only be one transformer and live connected at one time.
The way the transformers are wound is at the start (*) a length of winding wire say 1ft long is held at one end ( L in example) then the winding begins. When enough is wound to the first tapping the wire is brought out THEN taken back to continue the winding (and a loop/tapping is former, yellow in pic below) Then the winding continues and again loop out and back (second tapping) and so on till the last tapping (***) at which point the wire is brought out (single wire , no return to coil) and cut so forming a single wire tap. So the transformer will now have a single wire at start (*) and what will look like two wires at each tap after that until the last tap which will be single wire (***)(N in example). If you look under the sleeving of wires going to transformer you should see the doubled up wire/loops/taps.
If one of the loop-outs is broken (see x in pic) then all after that won't work but before will.
Try pulling back sleeving to see if any are broken (it is stiff wire)

 

[Louis macrides]

Wud this have fitted straight swap ?

 

[mike 109444]

It is unlikely any of those type of switches would be a "straight" swap. As your switch I believe is a 6 positions and an OFF you would at least need a 7 position switch as they count the OFF as a position (you could have more (to many). BUT your switch switches both the live and neutral I think. If so the easiest way would be to permanently connect the neutral to one end of the transformer and then switch between each of the 6 "tap" positions. For saftey the live and neutral could be taken through an ON/OFF switch first.
Looking at your pics of the switch dis assembly form other post you have not labeled any of the connections ! So first would be to id each original connection to the switch

 

[the snooper]

if your machine has 4 power settings but only 3 wires from the transformer then it must be using 2 of the coils at once for one of the four power settings or even twice just the same as some machines with rocker switches for power settings ie number 1 coil powered for number 1, lowest setting number 2 powered for 2nd setting then 3rd coil plus number 1 coil powered for number 3 setting then 3rd coil and number 2 coil powered for highest setting

 

[the snooper]

you may need to scroll down but shows how that machine is probably wired to achieve all 4 power settings

 

[Louis macrides]

Great reply thank you ,I do no ware each wire goes ,the reason I got 5 pole switch is because the old one is 0-1-2-3-4.the live and neutral connect to 2 of the twelve terminal ,I intend to copy and recreate as old one was to new switch including the bridges

 

[Louis macrides]

Ps my reply is for my KENDE 150r rotary switch replacement

 

[the snooper]

Think the problem you will have is getting the switch to supply power to the 3rd coil whilst switch is on position 3 and 4

 

[Louis macrides]

Even if I recreate bridges on terminals ?

 

[the snooper]

If you put in the links they won't do anything unless the contacts are closed internally those switches are often worked using cams so as you turn it the first contacts will close for position 1 then open 1 and close position 2 then open 2 close 1 and the connection for the 3rd coil then open 1 close 2 while keeping the 3rd coil connected for the 4th setting

 

[Louis macrides]

So will only work if internal are the same