repairing buzz box arc welders?

[douchecalamondaes]

so this is only my second thread on this site ans I am an almost completely self taught arc welder ( farm child).

I have 3 welders, all old, a kempii minisystem arc&tig, a "tradesman" arc, buzz box thingy. both 130amp jobbies, and both used to work. I used to be able to weld with 4mm 6013 *jsut* with them, off a 13A 240v socket, but nowdays neither deliver enough amps to give a nice weld with even 1.6mm rod. I dont know why they just dont give any amps? is this common problem?

I am now relying on my 200amp petrol JLO 370CC for all jobs and it does a nice job but its a little thirsty as you can imagine

 

[rikrobson]

There's not alot to go wrong in a buzz box. its basically a transformer, with a lump of iron that moves in/out to adjust the welding current. I'd be checking connectors and the earth clamp.

 

[dannyp]

they can't really go wrong other than bad connections or the "core" not moveing

if your anywhere close by the easyest fix might be the working 190A buzzbox i have in the shed

 

[PTvor]

No it's not a common problem. It sounds strange as you'd really expect them to work or not work, not to work but feebly. As rtkrobson says, check the connections and earth clamp. Check the electrode holder and lead.

Change the plugs, check the fuses, try another socket or check the one you've been using works with a heavy load such as a kettle.

A multimeter would be handy.

The usual problem with a buzz box which has been left in a damp shed for ages is that the screw which adjusts the current rusts up and seizes. Obviously the insulation on the windings can break down and then they burn out but that doesn't happen all that often.

 

[Bill Edwards]

I'd be pulling the covers off and checking the connections inside as well, assuming nothing external is at fault. Things can sometimes vibrate loose inside, particularly where the power and earth connections are that go through the front panel.

At least you've a nice engine driven unit

 

[douchecalamondaes]

thanks guys, im very practical car mechanic builder, etc not much I can't work out, I knew they were a big transformer so just wanted to see if they were common breakage, as I said, I have 2 separate buzz boxes and both are giving the exact same symtoms, tried on two different consumer units even! (i think thats what they are called) two leccy feeds into farm anyhoo, I know the supply is "enough"... they share earth and electrode leads though so I am going to start here, I have a multi meter, not sure exactly what I am looking for as I know they both have some continuity at least, ill have to find another set to plug in,. both of them the amp adjustment turns smooth too,

 

[penfold]

I'd be checking the welders on another supply, both welders going diffy at the same time suggests a supply issue not a welder issue.

 

[Bill Edwards]

A multimeter isn't really what you want for checking the cables and connections. They'll show continuity with a multimeter but when you try to put 140 amps through is when weak spots will show that a meter won't notice. You need to be opening up connectors and checking things are clean, tight and not frayed.

 

[dannyp]

usally you can see what bits have tryed to catch fire

 

[douchecalamondaes]

as said, been tried on multiple different power supplies..

had a go with them today welding some exhaust, still have to use bout 90amps for 1.6rod but fiddled with the leads a little and did a significantly better job, usually they cant even do 1.6. I have ordered a new earth lead as thats in the worst nick.

in terms of the round plug fitting for the leads what are the sizes called, the buzz boxes have the smallest size, (10/25) is it called? and the petrol has the next one up, as that runs 200amp, whats the name of that size?

cheers in advance

 

[dannyp]

dinze conector

 

[PTvor]

10/25 and 35/50.

These used to be the cheapest and the stuff they sold was good quality. I dealt with them a few years back.

http://www.diywelding.co.uk/?i=39287

Some of the ebay offerings are a bit thin and you have to watch the length you are being sold. Also, there's proper welding cable which is very flexible, and there's other thick cable which isn't really up to the job and maybe aluminium cored and really intended for fixed wiring or jump leads where it's only used occasionally.

It's unusual for buzz boxes to have round dinse connectors. Usually they are fixed connections or have lugs and nuts which screw down and trap the lug.

Are you sure the connections to the dinse sockets are sound and not loose or corroded? If you've got 45 A going through a connection which isn't very good, it's liable to get hot and maybe arc and be damaged.

 

[douchecalamondaes]

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got some pictures, as everyone loves pictures, (and I'm still having no luck)

already got an ebay lead before I read your reply, but thanks ill use that site in future..

the first picture you can see the kempii, I am wondering if its setup right? there are thousands of buttons and no manual with it, I was welding 2mm today to test it out, seemed to have the power to maintain a good arc, unless i got really close it would proceed to die and I had to pull the rod out and get a big flare before it would perk up again? is this normal as the petrol beastie (in the background) never does this?

the other issue I am having is fillet / corner welds, as you can see from the third picture, it does flat joins alright, but when I show it a corner, it insists on sticking to either side leaving slag in the middle and a frown on my face, I have tried weaving it to the best of my ability but it seems wayy worse at this than the petrol I am now used to. am I doing something wrong?

the last picture is some what I do with the petrol, that was with 4mm at about 160 I think, and was perfect (did the inside corners too),

thanks again guys, I hope its the machinie not me

 

[BrokenBiker]

if you submerge the end of the rod in the puddle it will usually kill it off unless you have got a fairly hefty unit...the 3 phase welder i learnt on was a beast and you just couldnt snuff the arc out no matter what you did but my 160 amp inverter has to be kept at the right arc length.

as for the fillets, dont weave, that wont help matters and will increase your chance of a slag inclusion from my experience. have you tried turning the current up a bit and trying again, hold a tight arc, rod angle at 45 degrees with a slight drag angle in the direction of travel etc? not trying to teach you to suck eggs, just little things to observe. i found going from a buzz box that had to be maxxed out to run a 2.5 to an inverter with much more grunt was a bit of a learning curve with regards to setting it right

 

[douchecalamondaes]

yea I think it could be the electric one still isn't giving it enough, mixed with the fact I am using fairly thin rods which are harder to make right on arc..

I have tried "sticking it in the corner" but it tends to just stick to one side all the way along then, and if I go any close it dies.. ill see when the new earth lead arrives what its like then.

I am still unsure as to what my arc welders actually are... as in, are they AC air cooled transformer units? or buzz boxes? ones a kempii minisystem mp1500 fully capable of tig.. and the other a transarc DC 130

 

[PTvor]

The Transarc 130 is a transformer unit which has a rectifier and choke for smoothing. From the information below, it looks as if it was intended for scratch TIG rather than mainly as an MMA welder. It's obviously DC output because there's + and - on the terminals. If you have a DC machine it makes sense to have the option of rod positive or rod negative and the dinse sockets are an easy way to do that. That document is from 1982 so it's a unit that's about 35 years old.

It's not what's usually understood to be a buzz box. It was probably a pricey item back in the day. it has thyristors to control the current, not a movable lump of iron like a buzz box.

http://www.murexwelding.co.uk/manuals/other/Parts Lists/Transarc Tradesman DC130.pdf

I suspect the Kemppi is a transformer, (rather than inverter) based TIG, but I'm not sure. If Google doesn't throw up any information get in touch with Kemppi UK and see if they'll send you a pdf of a manual. I'd imagine that to use it for MMA you set the small switch near the dinse sockets to the mid position and set the current with the dial, all the other controls being for TIG.

 

[douchecalamondaes]

thanks very much PTvor, so they are the "better" DC type then? thats good to know.. tehy both weigh about the same and both have a loud continuous fan, so I would assume they work on the same principal.. both dials are smooth as if attached to a variable resistor rather than a mechanical lump. I guess I wont chuck them around then lol..

this means I can use negative welding then? for thin stuff? I been reading the tutorials on here and I do have a tendancy to blow holes in thin stuff,

yes that is how I have setup the kempii, just going from the symbols, didn't know if any of the other buttons affected stick inadvertently though.

just got to get them running right now

 

[Bill Edwards]

The difficulties you encounter on the fillet welds are quite common with 6013 rods, which is what I presume you are using. You need to have everything just right, and they can still do that. Good quality rods can help a huge amount, plus they need to be dry. Even so, that's one reason why I often prefer to use a different rod such as a 7018.

The arc dying by pushing the rod into the pool too far is fairly normal. Some machines have more arc force, that petrol welder should have a lot which is why it's very hard to make the arc die.

 

[PTvor]

I'm guessing with the Kemppi but I'd assume in MMA mode the TIG controls don't work and all you can do is control the current.

Looking at them, they both have electronics in and it's possible that they both developed a fault at the same time, but the odds are against it. The common factors are the power supply which you say checks out OK and the leads.

It's not clear from your post whether you have the new earth lead and whether it made a difference, but I'd be inclined to get a couple of decent quality 3 meter leads, electrode holder and earth, and not mess about.

 

[douchecalamondaes]

well! for the record, the leads are on order but not arrived yet, so still on am ancient earth lead..

I went back to the transarc this evening, made sure the leads were well in, and gave it a blast..

"CAPTAIN-WE HAVE A FULL HEAD OF STEAM"

tons of power, and that fairly well solved the filleting issue I was having, it throws heat at the job just like the petrol one does,. and sounds nice and healthy.

this is all 2mm, and has been the victim of alot of my testing of these electric welders, so by this point I was covering old ground a bit, but you can see from the first pic, the large run on the left hand side is 2.5mm at 90amps, and 2 and 1.6 work well to, it still has inclusion sometimes, and the pool isn't the easiest thing to comtrol but I guess as you said thats a 6013 thing, I will try some 7018 havent touched them yet, in essence they are harder aren't they?


now we (well me) are all nice and happy about one of them being working, it does stall, like instant stall rather than dying over a second or so, which is odd, and it stall even before you get to a really tight arc, which is annoying when im trying to precisely position the root weld. I am assuming this is a component of some sort deteriorating inside or there is a certain cut out resistance that is set too low..


this also means the kempii is broken... so thats annoying, I hav already had the fan replaced in it, and the cost of whatever has broken this time is going to be prohibitive.

onto rods, they are SWP, olerikon fincord, and weldmaster? blue/red packet, and I have some toolstation 3.2's not tested on this machine, the best ones seem to be the 4&5mm ones, as they make a nice slag cover that comes off in one knock and no inclusions, but I guess that could be attributed to the larger diameter aswell?

whats a good brand to try for these 2mm?


thanks again guys, great forum, and I hope I can repay what you have taught me one day, I know its infuriating when a newbie comes along with the same old questions.