Rally car project

[plantlife]

Need a little advice, I'm going to need a roll cage fitted into my rally car project at some point.

I'd prefer to buy a bolt in version, but none are available (as far as i know) for this car.
so, I'm left with weld in ones.

What should i do,

1) attempt to do it myself (rather not)
2) pay a professional company (car builder quoted -2,000)
3) other?

I've been talking the talk, but not walking the walk about this project. So it's about time my finger was removed from my orafice

 

[Pulsarbebb]

what car is it if you dont mind me asking?

You could have a go yourself get a nice mig welder and try some scaffolding polls first

 

[Garreth]

What car is it ? and what sort of rallying ?

£2000 sounds a lot - unless its a multi-point FIA weld in jobbie.

I wouldn't attempt it yourself if you're not confident - there are decent cage builders out there. Having said that I've seen some horrors which have been pro built !

Just needs to be done to the MSA blue book drawings.

Garreth

 

[Garreth]

what car is it if you dont mind me asking?

You could have a go yourself get a nice mig welder and try some scaffolding polls first

The specs for the tubing are in the "blue book".

50mm x 2 mm CDS I think - or 45 x 2.5 as an alternative. It depends on what you're doing.

Garreth

 

[plantlife]

ford fiesta, will be mainly for clubman rallying.

It just looks awarkward, as there are some tight gaps where the tubs need to be welded

 

[piman]

Hello PL.

the Ford Fiesta is a popular car so I imagine that off the shelf roll cages are available. Try here for an example of what is available?http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/Motorsport/Car_Preparation/Roll_Cages/1893
I'm sure you will have someone a bit closer to you than Demon Tweeks, but the link gives the idea.

Alec

 

[agc]

Cage

Hi

Which mark Fiesta is it for?
Guy up here runs one and I'm sure it's a bolt in. I'll find out where he got it if you let us know which version.

I've fitted a couple of Custom Cages weld in jobs now. Solid kit but a LOT of work to fettle the tubes to fit even when they are the profiled ends. Last one cost about £680 + VAT for the kit. Reckon on about £1000 to have one fitted by Custom Cages who do a really nice job, so £2 grand isn't that far off the mark. Mind you taking the car to them adds a bit more on!

OMP do various versions for most cars, bolt in minimal, bolt in multi point, weld in etc. Euro exchange rate works against that at the present though....


Alan

 

[Garreth]

If you're building it for stage rallying you'll need a competition car log book - issued by an MSA scrutineer.

All the technical specs / drawings etc are in the MSA "blue book" and can be found online.

There's nothing to stop you doing it yourself assuming you use the correct tube (keep the receipts from your supplier - and ask them for a mill cert or certificate of conformity to prove it!) and the work is of an acceptable standard.

A weld in cage is a massive amount of work - hence the prices. Because everything has to be fully welded you can end up cutting bits of the roof off and panels out to get a continuous seam ! Fully welded cages are ultimately stronger than a bolt in (there tends to be more of it - fixed to the shell in more places), but a well fitted bolt in cage will still do the job.

There are plenty of ads for cage manufacturers in the blue book, and in the back of Motorsports News. Safety Devices have been round for years - I'd be surprised if they don't do a bolt in for a Fiesta http://www.safetydevices.com/

Good luck with your build ! Its certainly worth spending time and effort to get the cage right. It won't make you any faster but a well built cage protects your investment and might just save your neck one day !

Garreth

 

[NigelAylesbury]

I'll second what’s been said above.
You really do have to read your blue book and make sure you understand what's being said.
Please don't do what some do, and build what you think is right, getting it all welded up and then presenting it at scrutineering at the circuit/event. Get a local scrutineer to see it first, before all the serious welding goes on.
The steel specs are in the blue book, DO NOT use anything else. No high strength aluminium alloys, titanium’s, stainless steel, inconel etc…
http://www.msauk.org/uploadedfiles/msa_forms/bluebooks/10/160-195 Competitor Safety.pdf
And it states that
1.4.1. Specifications of the tubes used:
Minimum Material
Cold Drawn Seamless Carbon Steel
Minimum Yield Strength
350 N/mm2
Minimum Dimensions (Ø in mm)
45 x 2.5 or 50 x 2.0
38 x 2.5 or 40 x 2.0 (For roll cages/bars approved prior to 1.1.95).
1.4.2. In selecting the steel, attention must be paid to obtaining good elongation properties and adequate weldability.
1.4.3. The tubing must be bent by a cold working process and the centreline bend radius must be at least three times the tube diameter. If the tubing is ovalised during bending, the ratio of minor to major diameter must be 0.9 or greater.
Exceptions
The only exceptions to the foregoing requirements for Saloon, single seater and Sports Cars are as follows:
1.5.1. Safety Cage manufacturers may make application to the MSA for a Roll Over Protection System (ROPS)
Certificate to be issued.
Note: ROPS manufacturers wishing to make application for such a certificate should contact the MSA Technical
Department in order to obtain details of the requirements to be met and the fees payable. Subject
to these requirements being met a ROPS Certificate will be raised and issued. Duly authorised copies of this certificate containing a drawing, photographs, a copy of the manufacturers declaration that the ROPS meets the required regulations and a copy of the stress engineers declaration that the design is capable of withstanding the loadings specified in the regulations must be available to event Scrutineers.
1.5.2. Each ROPS manufactured after 1.1.97 for which the MSA or the FIA has issued a ROPS (Rollcage) Certificate must bear an identification plate which details the manufacturer and the manufacturer’s part number allocated to the cage. Details of this identity plate are to be included on the ROPS (Rollcage) certificate.

As an MSA scrutineer, I can assure you, we see expensive mistakes at the start of every single season, that could have been avoided with a simple phone call.

 

[Garreth]

I'll second what’s been said above.
You really do have to read your blue book and make sure you understand what's being said.
Please don't do what some do, and build what you think is right, getting it all welded up and then presenting it at scrutineering at the circuit/event. Get a local scrutineer to see it first, before all the serious welding goes on.
The steel specs are in the blue book, DO NOT use anything else. No high strength aluminium alloys, titanium’s, stainless steel, inconel etc…
http://www.msauk.org/uploadedfiles/msa_forms/bluebooks/10/160-195 Competitor Safety.pdf
And it states that
1.4.1. Specifications of the tubes used:
Minimum Material
Cold Drawn Seamless Carbon Steel
Minimum Yield Strength
350 N/mm2
Minimum Dimensions (Ø in mm)
45 x 2.5 or 50 x 2.0
38 x 2.5 or 40 x 2.0 (For roll cages/bars approved prior to 1.1.95).
1.4.2. In selecting the steel, attention must be paid to obtaining good elongation properties and adequate weldability.
1.4.3. The tubing must be bent by a cold working process and the centreline bend radius must be at least three times the tube diameter. If the tubing is ovalised during bending, the ratio of minor to major diameter must be 0.9 or greater.
Exceptions
The only exceptions to the foregoing requirements for Saloon, single seater and Sports Cars are as follows:
1.5.1. Safety Cage manufacturers may make application to the MSA for a Roll Over Protection System (ROPS)
Certificate to be issued.
Note: ROPS manufacturers wishing to make application for such a certificate should contact the MSA Technical
Department in order to obtain details of the requirements to be met and the fees payable. Subject
to these requirements being met a ROPS Certificate will be raised and issued. Duly authorised copies of this certificate containing a drawing, photographs, a copy of the manufacturers declaration that the ROPS meets the required regulations and a copy of the stress engineers declaration that the design is capable of withstanding the loadings specified in the regulations must be available to event Scrutineers.
1.5.2. Each ROPS manufactured after 1.1.97 for which the MSA or the FIA has issued a ROPS (Rollcage) Certificate must bear an identification plate which details the manufacturer and the manufacturer’s part number allocated to the cage. Details of this identity plate are to be included on the ROPS (Rollcage) certificate.

As an MSA scrutineer, I can assure you, we see expensive mistakes at the start of every single season, that could have been avoided with a simple phone call.

Seconded ! Make the MSA scrutineer your first port of call. They're motorsports enthusiasts and all the ones I've ever met have been most helpful. Ultimately its them that make the call as to whats right and wrong ! There's a list of scrutineers in the blue book (maybe on line as well !) - don't ring them at midnight, ask nicely and you won't go far wrong !!!!!!

There ! I'll never fail scrutineering again !

Garreth

 

[plantlife]

Thanks for the handy info. Ive been reading up on the blue book. I'm not making any plans yet, research research research

 

[stormin]

Have you tried the roll centre for cages they used to be a fair bit cheaper than some others.

http://www.rollcentre.co.uk/rollcentre/html/rollcage_directory.html

If you're not confident on the welding you could do the labour of basic fitting grinding etc, tack weld in place and get a professional to spend a few hours miging it all up properly.
Most of the work is in getting the shell prepped and some of the awkward large pieces in place in the shell.

A welded in cage will be far superior to bolt in, in my opinion, it adds more strength and stiffness to a car.

 

[plantlife]

Update, I've changed the car. As some idiot wrote my fiesta off. So, I've looked at fitting a 1.6 16v se zetec engine in a ka. ;-O

I've managed to find a bolt in cage for it aswell as buying a number of other odds and ends.
I'd like to thank those who offered advice on here

 

[Tiffa]

Keeps us all updated with the Ka build - i used to run a Ka Challenge car when they first came out so might have some useful info for you!

 

[tomsutton529]

Have a chat with my mate Dayle

http://dayletraynor.co.uk/

Hes got a fiesta Rally car and knows some very helpful and cheap people.

He bought the cage and got it welded in my a mate of his who runs a small motorsports company..

 

[nath2011]

ford fiesta, will be mainly for clubman rallying.

It just looks awarkward, as there are some tight gaps where the tubs need to be welded

hi, as you said about the welding in the tight gaps. welding tubing of 2" or similar isnt as hard as you may imagine, aslong as you have your wire speed correct and have the correct size shrowd (if using MIG) then getting the tip into the gap isnt that hard as i have some experience of the same problem which i had.

 

[bigvee]

A little tip, cut the floor not the roof. Makes a much nicer and easier job.

 

[plantlife]

I've bought some 50.mm CDS tube and i'm looking to get some 38 or 40 mm tube as well. As i'm going to add sectional bars on the cage. I havent done much lately as work has taken over