Pre-winter Workshop Sortout - Advice Please!

[astro_al]

Hi guys, I'm looking to get the place nice and toasty before the weather hits.

I've not got much builderingy type experience, but I need to do 2 things. Fix the gutters & insulate the walls.

The gutters are cast concrete jobbers and leak at every joint (about every 15 feet). Some roofing monkeys tried half-heartedly to seal the gaps between the sections last year, but they still leak. What is the best way to seal them?

I need to add drainage to stop water sitting in the gutters - planning on just drilling a bunch of holes in the gutters!

Once that's done, I'm going to line the building. 2" expanded polystyrene seems cheapest, with plasterboard on top (nice and fireproof). Should I run 2" battens from floor to ceiling every 4 foot and just stick the insulation in between? I need to screw the plasterboard to the battens - how do I arrange them if the 4' insulation fits between the battens and the 4' plasterboard is supposed to sit on top of them - I see a discrepancy ahead!

Is that the cheapest way of doing it?

there will effectively be a gap behind the upper sections of insulation. How do I fit the polystyrene panels with nothing behind to push them against?

Ta for all ideas / help, Al.

 

[troppo]

As for the gutter leaks, remove all the old sealant and use a decent one in its place. The insulation id easy enough to cut down with a hamd saw.n Just use some rinber battens running length wise along the steel panels, it will also give you something to fix your vertical battens to

 

[cumbriasteve]

A 4 foot span for plasterboard is a bit much, its not a strong material and can distort if not supported enough.
I made my timbers every 2 foot and it seems fine, been up a year now.

So...I would space the timers at 2 foot and cut the poly sheets to fit, a saw as mentioned works ok as does a big bread knife.

 

[astro_al]

Aw crap - that's twice as much wood! Is it important when the plasterboard is uniformly supported by the insulation behind? (Just trying to be cheap!)

Troppo - can you recommend a decent gutter seal stuff? Why will it work if I re-do what they've already done (and it doesn't work at the mo)? How best to remove the old stuff - grinder? Heat?

At the top of the wall, the vertical battens need to attach to the slanting inner face of the concrete lintel things. How best to do that? Should I just glue a horizontal batten to the concrete and cut the end of each vertical batten to fit against it?

Ta, Al.

 

[ronan]

Just sit cheap plastic guttering inside the concrete ones , the wet and frost will destroy anything you try to seal them with.

 

[sean-1]

On the gutter clean out the joints well and use Thompsons roof and gutter sealant (comes in a mastic tube)as it is butel rubber based and dosent crack in temperature changes. Would also suggest painting the entirity of the gutter with their paint as well. You can get the stuff from most big diy stores.
You would need to put timbers every 2' as plasterboard tends to distort if it gets a bit cold and damp which it would do in a workshop. Other option is to get insulated plasterboard (it has rigid foam insulation glued to the back of the board). then you could just glue this directly to the steel cladding with construction adhesive.

 

[slingshot2000]

Another good tip is to keep the bottom of the plaster board at least an inch off the floor. This is done in domestic housing and the gap is hidden by your skirting boards. If you don not do this and spill any liquids, your plasterboards will act as giant sponges and soak everything up. Damp plasterboard is as crumbly as a digestive biscuit after a dunk in your cuppa

 

[cazl1994]

Just sit cheap plastic guttering inside the concrete ones , the wet and frost will destroy anything you try to seal them with.

+1 i'd just sit some big 6 guttering inside it and core a hole out for the down pipe
and if your taking the plasterboard from the floor to the roof 2x1 roofing battens aernt going to be beefy enough without support id use something like 4x2 if i was doing it. on the houses we support the plasterboard every 400mm but every 600mm/2' will be fine !

 

[mike os]

al forget gutter seal, the only way to stop those leaking is to cut them off or line them, one of the worst pieces of crap I have ever come across in 25 years as a builder... & trust me I have seen some crap.

variety of options... if you want cheap & cheerful give it a good scrub, primer & flashband the whole length... (up the sides & tuck under roof covering) the joints leak, the concrete is porous and will probably have hairline cracks everywhere....

better is torch down felt but hot works issues mean this is dying out

Plygene/butyl preformed liners are OK for narrow gutters but need fixing at tthe outside edge and under teh roof sheet, ime they are susceptible to wind lift.

fully adhered EPDM would be my first choice, still needs covering at tthe exposed edge, but because it is stuck fixing down is not an issue.

for walls.... studs ( upright timbers) at 400-600mm (600 max) insulate 50mm (or more) between the timbers, then use 25mm over teh top and fix the plasterboard through the 25mm into teh studs with 75mm screws at 200mm centers...... sorry just slipped into specifier mode for a second LOL

if you want to do the roof try some T bar ( suspended ceiling or steel building insulation panel) ime if you use 50-75mm styrene you can go at 1200mm centers and use more tee to support the ends ( like a big suspended ceiling panel... (no need to plasterboard)

pm me if you are struggng

 

[pedrobedro]

Use plastic guttering in the old as above and space your battens to take the polystyrene you are using. If the face of the insulation is level with the battens just use PU adhesive on the back of the boards and glue them to the insulation as well as screwing them to the battens and they will be supported enough.

 

[ford34/2]

plater board/insulation

give a thought to buying your insulation board with a 12.7mm plaster board already bonded to the insulation, British Gysum etc etc, or give a thought to Kingspan, current thermal insulation recomendations are becomming frightening, under concrete on walls and above ceilings, anyone doing any building will tell you the days of a couple of inches of fibreglass are long gone. we are often using 150mm 200 and even 300mm Kingspan, edges sealed etc etc.

but almost anything is better than nothing, although dont waste your valuable time penny piching its as easy to do it right first time as it is to do it wrong

Stan

 

[gavuk]

When I was working with a narrow boat builder all the hulls were spray insulated....I've no idea how much it cost or indeed if it would be suitable but have seen it used on houses as well (holmes on homes tv series)...Might be worth looking at?....

 

[Hitch]

Line it with pressed up tin.......?

 

[astro_al]

Thanks for all the great advice guys.

I have an unorthodox plan for the gutters. I wanted to put a plate over the top of the whole thing and just have water run directly off the roof and over the side of the building, but the outside edge of the gutter is higher than the bottom of the roof...

I'm thinking of filling the gutter with concrete, sloping out to the outside edge (see crappy pic). If I drill holes directly out the side, that should give enough drainage to avoid build up of water. the gutters are flat, so water just sits in them and soaks into the building, which I want to stop. I can't add downpipes as the wall is directly below the outer edge of the gutters (couldn't be worse really). If I just sit modern plastic gutter in the concrete ones, water will spill out into the concrete gutter.

I could cover the concrete in a rubbery gutter paint or even some flat sheet material as per your suggestions. What do you think? Not sure what to do at the joints, but it should be a big improvement just to get rid of the standing water.

I take your consensus on the insulation battens and will do more than I had planned.

I will leave a small gap at the bottom of the wall to prevent the plasterboard soaking water up.

Mike - is your 'fully adhered EPDM' applied with an adhesive or heat?

Max I can afford is 2" of insulation (sodding massive workshop = no cheap way). So I can't stack an extra inch as you suggest. Sadly. Is this very stupid?

Ford - I hear ya. This is the absolute max I can pay for. Building regs are not going to get a look in! I figure just making it reasonably draft proof is the main thing, and insulation of any depth is the icing on the cake. Basically i'm trying to avoid this happening again:

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=16350

Gavuk - yeah I already sprayed the roof (and my old narrowboat) - see pics above. Nasty job (overhead), easy job for walls.

Hitch - yup, considering it.

Cheers, Al.

 

[mike os]

epdm is stuck.. in this case using a contact adhesive ( manufacturers own...)on timber there is a water based but not applicable here afaik

can cope with ponding .... ie being "full" of water where the gutter dips,

for joins in the gutter I would fill with cement, then lay over the lot. joins in the membrane are "solvent & adhesive welded" and effectively seamless afterwards

http://www.rubber4roofs.co.uk/EPDM-Uses/Rubber-Gutter-Linings?gclid=CJ_PsqX1z6sCFUMOfAodmDzsVQ

some pics & basic info

my pref is for firestone membrane but most are good

 

[ford34/2]

insulation

dont suppose you have a polystyrene manufacturing plant making the insulation in sheets.
our local one sells damaged for cash, next to nothing, and if you see the warehouse --he`ll damage you some,--enough said

Stan

 

[the snooper]

looking at your picture
instead of drilling holes just cut sections out and fit a hopper to it that way you can channel the water where ever you want

 

[the snooper]

just had another thought
could you fabricate stainless plates to cover the joints drill and plug the concrete that way you could seal between and screw them down