Play in Lathe

[Barking Mat]

Having recently bought a secondhand lathe, and knowing not a huge amount about these things and having spotted a fair few people on here who are into lathes..... a few questions..... my thanks in advance.

It's a Kaseneuve LO or LD and seems to date from around 1945, it's 3 phase and its jolly heavy.

'Play' in a lathe is bad, how though do you detect this play?

(1) The sliding bed seems to me in very good condition, the 'headstock' seems to have no play in it, but how does one detect that? Crowbar underneath and see if it moves? Probably not?? Advice please....

(2) The crossfeed seems to have a little bit of movement in the screw, but perhaps this is normal?

(3) The Saddle, it's an old lathe an its covered in swarf, do I really need to remove the saddle to clean underneath, how important is it really to dismantle the sliding gear to give it a good clean, as surely when you use it you just generate more swarf.

(4) The lubricant pump, is that to lubricate the cutting or the innerds or
both? Should it be running constantly?

(5) The original three way switch, fwd, bkwd and stop, gave up and has been replaced by a box of push buttons, providing high and low speed in forward and reverse. It's 3 phase, how are the dual speeds supplied is it the electric motor which has two speeds or is it electrickery?

Apart from 'practical machinist' anybody reccomend a good forum for latheing for begginners? Thanks folks.

 

[Fintray]

Try http://www.lathes.co.uk for more information.

 

[Barking Mat]

Yep, thanks for that, lathes.co.uk, I've had a good dig through it, and I'm still trying to understand the majority.

 

[ronan]

The lathe should have adjustable gibs which are there to take up play and backlash in the saddle and the cross slide, you should see large head screws on both these components.

 

[GrahamGKD]

(1) The sliding bed seems to me in very good condition, the 'headstock' seems to have no play in it, but how does one detect that? Crowbar underneath and see if it moves? Probably not?? Advice please....

(2) The crossfeed seems to have a little bit of movement in the screw, but perhaps this is normal?

(3) The Saddle, it's an old lathe an its covered in swarf, do I really need to remove the saddle to clean underneath, how important is it really to dismantle the sliding gear to give it a good clean, as surely when you use it you just generate more swarf.

(4) The lubricant pump, is that to lubricate the cutting or the innerds or
both? Should it be running constantly?

(5) The original three way switch, fwd, bkwd and stop, gave up and has been replaced by a box of push buttons, providing high and low speed in forward and reverse. It's 3 phase, how are the dual speeds supplied is it the electric motor which has two speeds or is it electrickery?

Apart from 'practical machinist' anybody reccomend a good forum for latheing for begginners? Thanks folks.

1) You could set up a dial gauge on the chuck or a bar held in the chuck and either lever or pull the chuck one way and the other and see how much movement you get. Are the headstock bearings adjustable - tapered or split bushes with a shimmed cap maybe?

2) On my small lathe there is an adjustment to take out some of the backlash in the screw - it is where the screw attaches to the slide or in the thread itself? It would be better without backlash but I'm not sure it is a disaster!

3) If you know swarf has got underneath I should get it out - it there some form of protection to stop swarf getting under (my small lathe has a felt wiper on the leading edge of the bed).

4) I imagine that is to pump the cutting lubricant.

5) Sorry, can't help with that one.

One test would be to set up a large bar end or plate in the lathe and face it off and see it it comes out flat - my previous lathe was quite old and wear in the bedways meant that faced off work never came out completely flat (it was like a very shallow angled conic).

 

[Pete.]

Bloody nice lathes and well sought-after.

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/ would be a good place to start. There's a wealth of info on prcatical but I dislike the slow load times due to the heavy advert overhead.

 

[penfold]

'Play' in a lathe is bad, how though do you detect this play?

Grossly, you detect it by grabbing the various bits and trying to shake them. On a lathe this size this technique is perhaps not going to be as effective as with smaller lathes.

(1) The sliding bed seems to me in very good condition, the 'headstock' seems to have no play in it, but how does one detect that? Crowbar underneath and see if it moves? Probably not?? Advice please....

as above

(2) The crossfeed seems to have a little bit of movement in the screw, but perhaps this is normal?

a little is normal, although 'toolroom' lathes like this often have sophisticated means of adjusting it out; if a manual is available or another owner of the same lathe may explain how.

(3) The Saddle, it's an old lathe an its covered in swarf, do I really need to remove the saddle to clean underneath, how important is it really to dismantle the sliding gear to give it a good clean, as surely when you use it you just generate more swarf.

Cleaning underneath is nice and will allow you to get to know the machine's innards and allow a proper paint job, but if the bed and saddle adjustment is ok there is no need to otherwise. Keeping the machine clean is easier if it's properly painted and starts off clean(i.e. do not allow swarf to accumulate and suds to dry into sticky sludge in the tray).

(4) The lubricant pump, is that to lubricate the cutting or the innerds or
both? Should it be running constantly?

Looking at the pictures on Lathes.co.uk it is referring to the suds or cutting oil pump

(5) The original three way switch, fwd, bkwd and stop, gave up and has been replaced by a box of push buttons, providing high and low speed in forward and reverse. It's 3 phase, how are the dual speeds supplied is it the electric motor which has two speeds or is it electrickery?

given the age of the machine it's probably a motor with 2 sets of windings; do you have any pictures you could post?

Apart from 'practical machinist' anybody reccomend a good forum for latheing for begginners? Thanks folks.

If you haven't already got some, there are excellent books available for the new lathe user. 'The Amateur's Lathe' by Sparey and the lathe volumes in the Home Workshop series are very good.

 

[Barking Mat]

Thanks folks for all the suggestions and knowledge, well after a good staring and twiddling session I have the impression some of the fog is lifting. I've now had it running and (touch wood) so far all seems to work.

(1) No detectable play in headstock without getting a DTI(?) gauge, good.

(2) My neighbour (font of some knowledge) reckons you take the tool to the workpiece, then you set the zero on the micrometer and your off. Still not sure

(3) There are things, like scrapers on the ends of the saddle which prevent swarf from entering underneath, however one of these is damaged.

(4) Apparently the lubricant pump, pumps out cutting fluid, however this is electrically disconected, and some of the piping is missing and the sump collector is full of what is most likely gearbox oil. So we suspect the pump not working and someone been squirting the workpiece with oil probably.
Apparently the pump has nothing to do with the main gearbox, and it's likely it has its own oil pump like an engine, or is it?

(5) Yep, definitely two big three phase cables going to motor, so fairly cert twin speed motor. However trying to understand the latching relays in the electrical box made my head ache a bit.

So apart from the lube pump probably being kaput, so far so good.

So bearing in mind the jaws or backplate screw on, what's to stop them flying off when you reverse? The will of God?

Thanks again, so far so good folks, here come the photos....

 

[Barking Mat]

My father is a model railway fanatic, I sometimes wish I'd taken up something which didn't involve moving stupidly heavy things, often......

The first three photos are from last week when I went to look at it, photo no' 4 was late last night, and the other photos are unloading Tuesday afternoon, get the strong lads in....

 

[GrahamGKD]

So bearing in mind the jaws or backplate screw on, what's to stop them flying off when you reverse? The will of God?

Make sure they are reasonably tight - mine have not come off yet. I only tend to reverse the machine occasionally for jobs like sanding woodturning. I think you might be in trouble if you were turning something with an intermittent cut in reverse but but you would need a tool mounted upside-down on the back of the cross slide to do that anyway??

 

[Terrapin]

Wow - that is a seriously heavy machine - makes my ww2 Sheldon look like a baby. I had a nightmare moving mine - Hyab, rollers etc.

 

[Barking Mat]

Graham, I'm still not entirely sure where the head unscrews from and I also discovered what I suspect is a 'brake' handle following a bike type brake cable or a morse cable for me, leading to the bottom of the pulleys, which I suspect is a brake, so assuming it needs to be 'locked' to unscrew it.....

I'm going to order some books this eve for more clarity, it's interesting though going 'what on earth is this...'

Terrapin, yes, we reckon it weighs 1.5 to 1.75 tons and then on a half ton trailer the clutch was juddering a bit to begin with, but just accelerate slowly....
I was about to go and hire a fork lift truck as I wasn't sure the beam would take it and as we lifted the lathe my eyes were glued to the beam. Must stop buying stupid heavy interesting things...

 

[Terrapin]

Lucky you didn't bring that beam down - assume its oak as your in france? :-)

 

[Terrapin]

" Modern Cazeneuve lathes are manufactured at two factories, one located at Pont-Eveque, (south east of Lyon) and the other in Albert, near Lille in northern France. According to which company literature you believe the firm has been producing lathes since either 1905 or 1912"

Have you tried contacting the factory? I contacted Sheldon in the US and they sent me the history of my lathe (shipped over to UK during ww2 on a merchant vessel - used to machine parts for paratrooper folding monkey bikes - a small moped)

 

[Barking Mat]

Bizzarely enough 'Mr Fluffy' on this forum, nearly bought one of these a couple of years ago, but didn't as the motor was dead, he contacted the company who told him it was old, very old, too old. And being a sensible chap he went to Blighty to buy one. But I will undoubtedly chase up the company one of these days. However I've just french googled and turned up some links I'd missed from french folks, with these lathes, Cazeneuve haven't any doc' and don't seem to be able to help, however I'm sure with the right books all will become clear....
Failing that I thought of tracking down the previous owner ad dragging him (or her) over for half a day as he's bound to know how it works if he's still alive...

 

[Barking Mat]

Why do google france and co.uk not share the same info?

Here's the 'saddle' explained.

 

[GrahamGKD]

Graham, I'm still not entirely sure where the head unscrews from and I also discovered what I suspect is a 'brake' handle following a bike type brake cable or a morse cable for me, leading to the bottom of the pulleys, which I suspect is a brake, so assuming it needs to be 'locked' to unscrew it.....

Ooh, brake, that's fancy! I lock my headstock by engaging the backgear without disengaging the backgear pin. My lathe's a bit of a toytown tiddler compared with yours though!

 

[CRB]

((One test would be to set up a large bar end or plate in the lathe and face it off and see it it comes out flat - my previous lathe was quite old and wear in the bedways meant that faced off work never came out completely flat (it was like a very shallow angled conic). ))

Myford, when they regrind beds and saddles, set the saddle so that it faces towards the centre to form a slight indent. IIRC.

I suppose it guarantees the part being able to sit down on, or butt against, another without fear of a high centre. Easier to be slightly concave than the other way.

 

[MattF]

Must stop buying stupid heavy interesting things...

If one person got a quid for each time one of us said that, there would be one extremely rich person somewhere out there. Age, common sense and experience just dissipates into thin air where workshop toys are concerned.

 

[Terrapin]

Well, if we didn't we likely would not be here