the snooper
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yes its will follow the car with out having a driver in it, using a rigid towing pole you need a second driver so the towed vehicle will have operating brakes
- Thread starter ukracer
- Start date
Until you take your B+E or if you have a pre 97 licence.
Then its the real weight that counts.
the snooper
getting older by the day
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from vosa's pdf file
Braking requirements
A broken down vehicle towed behind a recovery vehicle is viewed as a trailer in legal terms. Ordinarily, a trailer would need to comply with the braking requirements as stipulated by the Construction & Use Regulations. Broken down vehicles however, are exempt from the Construction & Use braking requirements. Therefore, broken down vehicles can be towed legally by recovery vehicles using spectacle lifts, A frames, or tow dollies without the need for overrun braking systems.
Where recovery vehicles are used to transport non-disabled vehicles, there is no legislative provision which permits recovery vehicles using spectacle lifts, A frames or tow dollies to operate without overrun brakes. This effectively means that all towed vehicles above 750 kgs need to comply with the Construction & Use braking requirements for trailers, which isn’t in practice feasible in the majority of cases.
the snooper
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i posted that link in post 18
the snooper
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this is a totally grey area department for transport say no matter what the weight if fitted the brakes must work and then vosa say the exact opposite but only if in use for recovery purposes, it then states that if used for transportation purposes then the brakes must work.
so the overall conclusion is, ther ARE LEGAL for recovery purposes only.
so the overall conclusion is, ther ARE LEGAL for recovery purposes only.
going to say i used to have and use an A frame but gave up, i've had enough encounters with over excited self inprota******* with blue lights on there roof. problem is it's there opinion on the side of the road and motorists are guilty untill they prove otherwise. problem is you can't have a reasonable discussion about whats is legal ect you ether have to take the ticket or take it court which most don't as it chould very easly hurt a lot more.
that said, from about 11 oclock friday and saturday nights till 2 int he morning. maxumum authrised mass of anything with wheels that can move is aproxamatly 135 tonnes as long your not going through town.
that said, from about 11 oclock friday and saturday nights till 2 int he morning. maxumum authrised mass of anything with wheels that can move is aproxamatly 135 tonnes as long your not going through town.
EddyP
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I used to have one like this
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Solomatic...076625?hash=item280f946a51:g:AVUAAOSwHaBWlTDS
With the braking attachment, that even though seems really crude worked quite well, it basically used a big bowden cable from the hitch to a device wedged between the front seat and the brake pedal, then put the brakes on when you braked.
Solomatic was the brand that the AA used.
In the end I got rid of mine because I found it wasn't that good on modern cars due to the front bumpers/valances always hanging so low.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Solomatic...076625?hash=item280f946a51:g:AVUAAOSwHaBWlTDS
With the braking attachment, that even though seems really crude worked quite well, it basically used a big bowden cable from the hitch to a device wedged between the front seat and the brake pedal, then put the brakes on when you braked.
Solomatic was the brand that the AA used.
In the end I got rid of mine because I found it wasn't that good on modern cars due to the front bumpers/valances always hanging so low.
CornishPete
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i did my b+e and I'm sure the maximum allowable mass thing applies to everyone including pre 97, the only difference being you don't need to take an extra test, cat b+e is automatically on your licence, the rules for b+e are universal for everyone. (you will also have c1 automatically on your licence (7.5t) wheras I would have to do an extra test but if I did the rules would be the same for us both)
The trouble as i see it is some people seem to think they can interpret things that are on the govornment website in black and white:
"If you attach an A-frame to a car in order to tow it with a larger vehicle, the car plus A-frame counts as a trailer.
If you use a dolly to tow a broken-down vehicle, the dolly counts as a trailer.
In both cases the usual safety regulations for trailers apply."
as grey!!
Then they come on forums and tell other people.
Thats probably the reason the AA's towing dollies have brakes!
The trouble as i see it is some people seem to think they can interpret things that are on the govornment website in black and white:
"If you attach an A-frame to a car in order to tow it with a larger vehicle, the car plus A-frame counts as a trailer.
If you use a dolly to tow a broken-down vehicle, the dolly counts as a trailer.
In both cases the usual safety regulations for trailers apply."
as grey!!
Then they come on forums and tell other people.
Thats probably the reason the AA's towing dollies have brakes!
CornishPete
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Another thought arising from this, If the vehicle is on a dolly or A frame and classed as a trailer, does it need tax, MOT and Insurance?
steviec_lj
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So, you just wanted to argue the toss?
It was stated back on page 1, af 7.39pm, that they're best dealt with as recovery only...
steviec_lj
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Plain and simple, if it's wheels are on the ground (even one of them), it needs to be roadworthy.
the snooper
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No not at all, its a fact they can be used for transport if a braking system is fitted, so why the need to be so abrupt ?
premmington
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This braking issue with dollies does not make sense to me, if the towed car is a trailer and over 750kgs, then both axles have to be braked, not just the dolly axle.
I understand you can use an A-frame or dolly with or without brakes for a recovery to place of safety!
I am in the trade, we tow with poles, straps, 4x4 with 3.5ton trailer fitted with tacho and airbrakes. Plus we have a 7.5ton lorry.
I have used self steering dollies (AA intertrade ones) there are OK at low speed.
But towing with an A-frame scares me to death! I hate the things! I would ban them if I had my way!
As I said before a lot of what VOSA says is different to what will be decided by the judge on certain things and this could be one, if it is being towed behind a vehicle, then it is classed as a trailer, and as such would not need mot and tax, but insurance should be on the towing vehicle that is doing the towing. But remember if you are towing a trailer must be road worthy and is fit and legal for purpose, which covers lights and brakes etc
A frames have been fitted with a over run type of brakes for years, but as some one has said the brakes have to work on all wheels that are on the road, ie 4 wheel trailer has to have brakes to all wheels, and a car with all four wheels on the road is treated the same all wheels must be braked
the arrangement is fiddly hence most people said they could not be bothered but, it is possible and if you look at a lot of campers that are towing a car behind, will most likely be rigged for braking, they will not be able to say I am just recovering it Gov only another 100 miles should do it.
Does vosa make the law? I don't think so, just accept it is a very grey area, but if a copper wants to take you to court then, if you want to be the person standing in court and try and argue it go ahead, lots of people will be behind you if you win, but I am sure they will desert if you fail and it will be your licence.
Also remember vosa as someone else has said argue about definitions etc between themselves.
Regarding towing a trailer that has a heavy max weight than you tow vehicle, I think that was thrown out, ie if like my plant trailer its a 3.5t trailer, I have a licence that allows me to tow 3.5t but if the car can only tow 2000kgs at one stage you would not be able to tow that trailer with that vehicle even with an empty trailer, but I am certain as long as the trailer loaded or empty is under you vehicle tow weight you can tow it.
A frames have been fitted with a over run type of brakes for years, but as some one has said the brakes have to work on all wheels that are on the road, ie 4 wheel trailer has to have brakes to all wheels, and a car with all four wheels on the road is treated the same all wheels must be braked
the arrangement is fiddly hence most people said they could not be bothered but, it is possible and if you look at a lot of campers that are towing a car behind, will most likely be rigged for braking, they will not be able to say I am just recovering it Gov only another 100 miles should do it.
Does vosa make the law? I don't think so, just accept it is a very grey area, but if a copper wants to take you to court then, if you want to be the person standing in court and try and argue it go ahead, lots of people will be behind you if you win, but I am sure they will desert if you fail and it will be your licence.
Also remember vosa as someone else has said argue about definitions etc between themselves.
Regarding towing a trailer that has a heavy max weight than you tow vehicle, I think that was thrown out, ie if like my plant trailer its a 3.5t trailer, I have a licence that allows me to tow 3.5t but if the car can only tow 2000kgs at one stage you would not be able to tow that trailer with that vehicle even with an empty trailer, but I am certain as long as the trailer loaded or empty is under you vehicle tow weight you can tow it.
the snooper
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i think when people take advice from a government website then later get taken to court for it, it should be thrown out when you produce the advice you followed and the government told to get their house in order, if the authorities cant agree what is actually correct, the rest of us have no chance
And this is where we have the issue. My son now works for a recovery firm. They use a frames daily. ......but is that because they are recovering and not transporting??
premmington
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It does seems as if we are just going round in circles now, with little chance of a single person's opinion / statement being accepted by the rest
Just an observation - feel free to carry on
TeeHee...
Once you have done your B+E then its the real weight that counts.
So a car with a 2000kg tow limit can tow a 3500kg trailer that is empty & weighs 1000kg.
Re the C1+E your wrong, if you took your C1+E it has a limit of 12000kg whilst pre 97 is 8250kg.
They cant retrospectively change entitlements.
There was a period when lots of new 4x4 pickups had lower tow limits & the farmers were all getting pulled when towing a 3500kg trailer with a vehicle that can only to 2800-3000kg even with a total weight under their tow limit. Eventually they sorted it all out.
I have a letter from a Mr Andrew Ball senior traffic examiner at the then VOSA (now DVSA) dates 18/03/2011 stating this.
