Penetration & fusion - Part 3

  1. MichaelV

    MichaelV Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    221
    Location:
    Co. Antrim
    This time, arguably at the opposite end of the penetration spectrum...

    Position & material:
    PB (2F), tee joint between 10 mm thick mild steel, rolled flat bars with rolled edges. Cut from same bar as used in Parts 1 and 2.

    Parameters:
    3 passes each side with 3.2 mm, 7016 (Filarc 56S), DC positive, 125A, zero arc force. Passes were made on alternating basis. The rods were not baked or prepared in any way, and have been stored in a rod tube, following opening of the original vacpac months ago.

    Remarks:
    A fairly lumpy profile on both sides :whistle:, but markedly better penetration than observed with the 6013 (as you'd expect, hopefully!) The rolled edges of the oncoming plate at the root are almost completely consumed. More consistent penetration on the faces of the oncoming (vertical) plate, although penetration on the base plate is generally good. This is in the absence of any arc force/dig.

    Michael

    02.JPEG
     
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  2. Dcal

    Dcal Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    2,353
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    Antrim Northern Ireland
    Michael. Nice tests and nice etching.

    What did you use to etch the welds? And how fine did you go on the polishing.
    Also what did you use to take the photos? They are better than a lot of cut and etch tests I see from the labs.

    Cut and etch is a great way to see if your welds are good and I'm sure a lot of people with small migs would get their eyes opened if they etched welds done with dip transfer on thickish steel.

    I was surprised how little penetration there was on the 6013s, but the welds are still not going to let go.
    The 7018 are a different animal and you just know if the weld looks good it will be.
    I find them far easier to use especially for any out of position work but I didn’t know there was as much difference in penetration between the 7016 or 18 and the 6013 rods. I thought it was just down to the strength of the weld metal, but in fairness I’ve never seen a cut and etch of 6013s before.

    I think it would be worth keeping these in the same thread so they are easier to find and to refer to.

    Keep up the good work.
     
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  3. MichaelV

    MichaelV Forum Supporter

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    Thanks you @Dcal

    The procedure I've used is:

    1. After cutting (cold saw or slitting disc), use 120 grit flap disc.
    2. Use "medium" fibre buffing wheel in the drill.
    3. Finish with "fine" fibre buffing wheel. The end result is by no means a mirror finish, but is a very smooth, matt surface.
    4. Apply repeated swabs of Nital (2%).
    5. Apply repeated swabs of Fry's reagent to bring out the contrast between the 'cast' and rolled structures.

    The photos are just iPhone shots, with some tilt to try to get the best cast of light onto the etched face. I have to admit, one of my teenage daughters has helped with the photography... as many of you will know, they are highly qualified!

    I agree entirely with your comment about dip transfer MIG, and do intend running a similar series of tests on that once the MMA is finished.

    Yes, the 6013 didn't bite much, but I am going to repeat another test with some 'dig' applied. I suspect that will help a bit. It will be interesting to see.

    7018 is coming up in Part 5 :thumbup:

    Good suggestion on a single thread. I might pull each series together into a PDF or slides at the end, as I have just posted Part 4!

    Thanks
    Michael

     
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  4. Aff

    Aff Member

    Messages:
    126
    Location:
    Weymouth
    I do enjoy seeing this stuff, so good on you for putting in the effort.

    I agree a single thread would probably be better. Not only for easy access to all the info but it will also let people engage and debate a bit easier.
     
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  5. Brad93

    Brad93 M J B Engineering

    Messages:
    10,397
    Location:
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    Filarc 56S never gives the flattest profile.
     
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  6. TechnicAl

    TechnicAl Member

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    8,250
    Location:
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    Frys Reagent.........not heard those words for a long time.....we used to use a modified version called AFC....acidic ferric chloride.....Frys uses Copper Chloride

    Frys is usually used for Stainless and maybe Nickel Alloys so its quite nasty stuff....conc Hydrochloric.....Stainless reacts with Chlorides......its also usually for Micros rather than Macros.

    To be honest I wouldnt be using it on MS....doesnt it go really black........where are you getting the Frys reagent from

    anyway back to the tests......again they are more or less what you would expect.......I think you were a bit light on the amps for the 2.5mm 6013s....maybe another 10 would have got the corner

    56s was the go-to rod for critical work and rooting on just about all the Oil and Offshore work....it may not be the best but it was used and it worked so no-one dare use anything else...if it aint broke dont fix it.
     
  7. MichaelV

    MichaelV Forum Supporter

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    Co. Antrim
    Indeed Brad; I feel better!
    Joking aside, I wouldn't normally specify its use for much other than open roots, at which it excels.
    Michael

     
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  8. MichaelV

    MichaelV Forum Supporter

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    Thanks Al

    Aye, I MSDS indicates 20% ethanol, 40% hydrochloric acid, 5% cupric chloride and the balance water as the composition of the Fry's. Once it's done its work, I swab clean with ethanol and that more or less freezes things as they are. I get it from a supplier in England, along with the Nital. Some references I have come across do suggest it for MS as a means to enhance contrast, but with the caveat that you rinse the sample. The INE 46 2.5 mm max recommended current is 100A, and I was at 95A. The influence of dig will be interesting.

    Yes, the 56S... something of a legend, justifiably.

    Michael

     
  9. Mpm welding

    Mpm welding Member

    Messages:
    26
    Location:
    Cheshire
    Am I missing something here ? The 6013's were run on dc negative? Equals less penetration yet the 7016 run on DC positive? Why? I don't think I've ever run a 6013 dcen. In fact no I haven't, I've also noted that different manufacturers 6013's penetration differs greatly, as I've mentioned before Elga 3.2mm 6013 are wild diggers whilst Esab ok46.00 are most definitely not. Also worthy of note is the fact they were 'old' 7016's. So my question is how do my 40kg of 7018's fayre once opened, as I have 4kg opened to the air for 6 weeks, in a rod tube. Low hy affected no doubt but how/what makes them go 'off'? Especially as our American brethren do often use them unpacked, unrebaked & unquivered. Thanks to Michael for the testing as I don't have the patience for such endeavours!
     
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  10. TechnicAl

    TechnicAl Member

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    8,250
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    Rotherham
    Every days a school day...

    Dont take too much notice of recommended currents.......I used to write the recommendations......you cant recommend a current that may overheat the rod even though it might not give you the pen.......I think the 40 amp per mm +or- a few, is the best guide....and whatever gives you what you want is even better
     
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  11. MichaelV

    MichaelV Forum Supporter

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    221
    Location:
    Co. Antrim
    Thanks @Mpm welding

    The INE 46 6013 can run either polarity (and AC) but DCEN is recommended. I think the Bohler and Elga 6013 that I use are the same. Generally speaking, 7016 is only run DCEN for more control when putting in an open root; a classic example being the Filarc 56S. After that, subsequent passes you revert to DCEP. I must test my Elga 6013 to see how they compare with the INE 46, now that you mention it.

    For proper coded work, I would insist on fresh 7016/7018 (indeed any consumable) fresh from the vacpac. In a professional setting, I personally prefer to see vacpacs used as there is simplicity and no messing about with other hardware, etc.

    But for this sort of exercise, and arguably most "informal" fabrication, I don't think there's great need to bake or re-dry rods.

    @TechnicAl could give you the full story, for sure.

    Michael

     
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  12. Mpm welding

    Mpm welding Member

    Messages:
    26
    Location:
    Cheshire
    I run as hot as possible for the given situation/thickness. But yep everyday a school day, as I didn't know running a smaller diameter rods penetration on a root was greater than using a bigger rod, never read/heard it before, but I'm not schooled in the ways of the weld. Brad clearly is, some of your gear/terminology is way over my head Brad, esoteric to say the least.
     
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  13. TechnicAl

    TechnicAl Member

    Messages:
    8,250
    Location:
    Rotherham
    Agree....I didnt notice the negative thing....will run both but more pen on positive..........We used to make WRX30 which tended to fingernail on DC+ so when the rationalisation came the KD 46 was preffered and the group name becanme Omnia 46 but Omnia 30 were the same rod.

    Your 7018s will probably soak up some moisture and become less low Hy but most rarely exceed 10mls H2 even when "wet".......to be honest they dont really go off......sometimes the surface will turn white which is the binder Sodium Silicate reacting with CO2 in the atmosphere....a slightly damp rag will remove it but its harmless anyway....many associate it with dampness but it isnt...it just looks bad
     
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  14. Mpm welding

    Mpm welding Member

    Messages:
    26
    Location:
    Cheshire
    Yeah vacpacs are getting smaller nowadays, unfortunately paupers like me get em cheap in 5kg sealed packs. I dont open them as I very rarely will use a load in one hit. Lol Bought 18kg for 27.50 delivered from Ebay arrived today, guy isnt listing them as 7018 as a weird boiler rod but I spotted the aws7018 designation on the pack. Just ran some v v nice. Fixing 2 x 1m pieces 75x50 angle 6mm wall together. Gonna be a very strong fence! Lol Phoenix sh Schwarz 3 rods incidentally.
     
  15. Mpm welding

    Mpm welding Member

    Messages:
    26
    Location:
    Cheshire
    That Al, is music to my ears I will now 7018 everything on the planet ! I currently have 125kg approx of mixed rods, I need to stop working in 2 different workshops as everything is doubled up !
     
  16. TechnicAl

    TechnicAl Member

    Messages:
    8,250
    Location:
    Rotherham
    Phoenix are Bohler or Voestalpine these days.......Pheonix Union were a brand within the Bohler range (I think they bought them out many years ago)...pink packaging?..........I think they are designed for a specific purpose but thats more of a marketing ploy (reduces the competition)
     
  17. 8ob

    8ob Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    6,705
    Location:
    moscow on thames
    I was wondering how long a 3.2 rod with the amps cranked up high enough to penetrate 10mm plate like that would last before it fell apart.

    Bob
     
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  18. TechnicAl

    TechnicAl Member

    Messages:
    8,250
    Location:
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    If you are getting start porosity....dry them....otherwise not a problem unless youre welding 50mm plate on a bridge or something
    even if the ends go rusty they will be fine under the flux
     
  19. Mpm welding

    Mpm welding Member

    Messages:
    26
    Location:
    Cheshire
    10mm 3.2mm rod no drama, I did 12mm plate with 6013 for a mates pizza oven lol 2 weeks ago his pizza oven is over 650deg c on full tilt so his pizzas getting uneven cooking. I bevelled the 2 plates little gap wanged the 3.2mm in at about 130amps if memory serves then just laid subsequent beads in there after, let it cool a bit removed my 2 clamps, lit up a 2.5mm on the backside even though I actually had full penetration, then flap disced smooth for his pizzas/steaks, 2 12mm rod handles welded on. Done. He thought it was one plate, and still won't believe I welded 2 150mm wide plates together. I also will g'tee zero porosity too. Bold statement from an amateur I know. Lol
     
  20. Mpm welding

    Mpm welding Member

    Messages:
    26
    Location:
    Cheshire
    Does nobody gouge out like the yanks do to get more penetration! Watched icweld on youtube the other day he is rather good with his torch for chunky plate I would think a necessity. So Bob has a point there relying on a tiny bit of grip/penetration.
     
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