Not seeing penetration through thicker material.

[Thebeast]

I am using a cebora 260e welder setting are in photo, voltage is at 8.5 @120-260amp 5 wire speed. My machine doesn’t have any sort of indercator of the amperage. Hope this helps. I did a weld test looks like hardly any penetration on the 6mm plates, maybe it’s something I’m doing wrong?

I only did one side as part of the test

 

[Wozzaaah]

What else affects overall amperage?

The “power” control on a mig welder only controls the voltage. The wire diameter, feed rate and stickout length will all affect the welding current.

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

It's hard to be absolutely certain because you have already begun the bend test, but that looks like there's a slight lack of fusion at the very base of the throat.

That's something that will weaken the weld a lot.

But is most likely the result from a travel speed or torch angle issue, rather than the weld settings.

Focus on making sure you see the puddle actively melting into that corner as you weld, which might mean adjusting your speed and/or torch position if the weld doesnt seem to naturally want to do that, and you'll be grand!

Apart from that specific issue, they're very decent looking welds, so once you figure that last bit out you'll have some very good results.

 

[Thebeast]

View attachment 469217

It's hard to be absolutely certain because you have already begun the bend test, but that looks like there's a slight lack of fusion at the very base of the throat.

That's something that will weaken the weld a lot.

But is most likely the result from a travel speed or torch angle issue, rather than the weld settings.

Focus on making sure you see the puddle actively melting into that corner as you weld, which might mean adjusting your speed and/or torch position if the weld doesnt seem to naturally want to do that, and you'll be grand!

Apart from that specific issue, they're very decent looking welds, so once you figure that last bit out you'll have some very good results.

Thank you I bent this piece but I have a spare piece (the other half) from the same weld. I tried putting vinegar on it but didn’t see much difference to see the weld. Not entirely sure on the process of doing that tbh lol

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

I am using a cebora 260e welder setting are in photo, voltage is at 8.5 @120-260amp 5 wire speed.

This makes more sense now.

It's best to think about it as Voltage sets the width of the arc, (it actually affects the arc length, but the practical effect on the weld is a wider bead, and greater overall heat input because you're heating a bigger area)...

The relatively high voltage is why your beads are giving a nice wide fillet with good leg length and nearly no convexity.

The wire feed (and wire diameter) will dictate the amperage (which the machine automatically adjusts as you weld to keep the arc lit). So if your wire feed is only halfway up, you're not drawing the max 260 amps.

Try doing several short test welds, turning up you wire feed a little bit each time, then sectioning them to look at the penetration.

You will likely find that with enough additional wire speed, it naturally wants to "burn in" to the corner (watch the puddle closely to see it's melting all the way to the bottom) with very little need for any other changes to your technique (which seems good), just slightly faster movement.

 

[Thebeast]

This makes more sense now.

It's best to think about it as Voltage sets the width of the arc, (it actually affects the arc length, but the practical effect on the weld is a wider bead, and greater overall heat input because you're heating a bigger area)...

The relatively high voltage is why your beads are giving a nice wide fillet with good leg length and nearly no convexity.

The wire feed (and wire diameter) will dictate the amperage (which the machine automatically adjusts as you weld to keep the arc lit). So if your wire feed is only halfway up, you're not drawing the max 260 amps.

Try doing several short test welds, turning up you wire feed a little bit each time, then sectioning them to look at the penetration.

You will likely find that with enough additional wire speed, it naturally wants to "burn in" to the corner (watch the puddle closely to see it's melting all the way to the bottom) with very little need for any other changes to your technique (which seems good), just slightly faster movement.

Thanks I will try this out tomorrow doing a few test plates. So keep my voltage the same and just increase wire speed? When I turn the wire speed up It stops sounding like bacon cooking it seems to change to a more aggressive popping sound. Will I need to adjust the voltage higher if the wire speed goes up?

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

Thanks I will try this out tomorrow doing a few test plates. So keep my voltage the same and just increase wire speed? When I turn the wire speed up It stops sounding like bacon cooking it seems to change to a more aggressive popping sound. Will I need to adjust the voltage higher if the wire speed goes up?

I would start by varying the torch distance slightly (closer arc) to see if the bacon sound comes back.

If that doesn't work then adjust the voltage...

Based on the sounds you're describing it's possible that as you increase the wire feed (and current) you're transitioning from "Short Circuit" to "Globular" transfer mode.

If that's the case:

- you'd actually have to reduce the voltage to go back to "Short Circuit",

and,

- Increasing the voltage might push it into "Spray Transfer" which would sound like a fairly constant buzzing, and can be a nice way to weld, but requires you to work fast to avoid putting too much heat in, and other has specific limitations.

On the plus side, once you've finished messing about with settings this time, you'll have a more intuitive feel for how to get things "just so" for every future project.

 

[Thebeast]

I would start by varying the torch distance slightly (closer arc) to see if the bacon sound comes back.

If that doesn't work then adjust the voltage...

Based on the sounds you're describing it's possible that as you increase the wire feed (and current) you're transitioning from "Short Circuit" to "Globular" transfer mode.

If that's the case:

- you'd actually have to reduce the voltage to go back to "Short Circuit",

and,

- Increasing the voltage might push it into "Spray Transfer" which would sound like a fairly constant buzzing, and can be a nice way to weld, but requires you to work fast to avoid putting too much heat in, and other has specific limitations.

On the plus side, once you've finished messing about with settings this time, you'll have a more intuitive feel for how to get things "just so" for every future project.

I will definitely try this thank you! Could you explain to me what globular,short circuit,spray is? How do you change into them modes? Tbh iv heard a few things about spray etc but I thought it was some sort of mode on a welder (like a button) lol. Iv been watching a few videos just now on it but none of them are explaining exactly how to do them and I can’t really understand/get my head round what causes the mode to change.

Thank you mate you have helped me out a lot I’m so glad I joined this forum as I feel I have learned a lot just by what you and others have explained! :-)

 

[Erie Fred]

Spray, need argon at or above 80%
voltage up high, wire will not form ball on end, look for a pencilling down on the end of the wire.
Much less noise than short arc, much hotter, more fluid.

....and your glove catches fire to.....

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

I will definitely try this thank you! Could you explain to me what globular,short circuit,spray is? How do you change into them modes? Tbh iv heard a few things about spray etc but I thought it was some sort of mode on a welder (like a button) lol. Iv been watching a few videos just now on it but none of them are explaining exactly how to do them and I can’t really understand/get my head round what causes the mode to change.

Thank you mate you have helped me out a lot I’m so glad I joined this forum as I feel I have learned a lot just by what you and others have explained! :-)

So you do choose them on the welder, but it's only possible by adjusting the settings, which will vary with the choice of welding machine, wire, workpiece and gas.


Generally you want to choose either Short Circuit or Spray, and avoid Globular like the plague.

Short Circuit works for everything, but is less hot and less fast than other modes.

Spray works best on thicker metal due the the amount of heat, and in Flat or Horizontal positions, welding overhead is difficult and welding vertically [nearly] impossible because the metal of your puddle is too hot and 'runny".

Globular (with a fast freezing Flux-Core wire) sometimes gets chosen to increase the speed of welding for welds on thicker metal that can't be done with Spray because they're overhead or vertical; it's a niche situation and I suspect most welders who have been asked or told to do so would just rather not given a choice.


Short Circuit:
The only time enough current flows to actually melt the wire, is when the wire bumps into the work.

When that happens a tiny bit melts into the puddle, and the process repeats.

The "Bacon Sound" is this process of short-melt-repeat happening dozens or hundreds of times a second.

When everything is just right it won't spatter that much because it's getting enough energy to melt the metal and no more.

Effectively the default welding mode at most settings that both actually work and aren't one of the other modes.

Globular:*
The voltage is high enough to sustain a fairly long arc, which can pass enough current to melt metal not touching the puddle.

But, the amount of current being passed is only barely enough to melt the wire into little blobs,‡ or "globules".

The blobs fly towards the workpiece at roughly the speed they had as wire, and smack into the puddle of molten metal kinda violently a few times a second.

That's the loud popping sound, usually accompanied by a lot of spatter.

Requires:
• Voltage in the 21V-24V range,
• Wire feed greater than short circuit,
• More likely to occur using a gas mix with a high percentage of CO2 or pure CO2

Spray:
The voltage is high enough to sustain a long arc, which is big enough to pass a lot of current.

The amount of current being supplied not only fully vaporises the wire as it feeds into the arc, but is creating an electrically driven force pulling this mist of molten metal towards the workpiece.

The mist is continuously being sprayed into the puddle at a steady rate, and the sound is a stable buzz, with almost no spatter at all.

Requires:
• A gas mixture containing >80% Argon,
• Voltage above 24V (often 27-28 or more but varies with the wire and machine),
• Wire feed set higher than for globular,
• 'Normally' a machine capable of providing 220A-250A current (but can go down as 150A with thinner wire).


*(Side note 1: Globular is the "original" form of MIG welding, short circuit mode was originally assumed to be too unstable to work, so it was only once people started using MIG that it was realised short circuit was both workable and easier than globular).

‡(Side note 2: It just hit me writing this that if an engineer somewhere in the 1940's was just slightly less professional in naming his concepts we could have had "Blobular Transfer" or "Blob Transfer" and the world would be a better, funnier, place for it).

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

Spray, ...

....and your glove catches fire to.....

Fibreglass over leather cover over your glove and a Water-Cooled Torch...

That way you can keep going until you realise you've started slow roasting your hand like a pot roast for Sunday dinner!

Thank you mate you have helped me out a lot I’m so glad I joined this forum as I feel I have learned a lot just by what you and others have explained! :-)

No worries, it's a good attitude to have, asking lots of questions and trying to understand why what you're doing works and if you could make it better.

Welding is one of those things that starts off difficult, then gets easy once you get the hang, then suddenly gets more complicated again as you try to do more ambitious things...

It's a cycle that repeats each time you add a new technique to your skillset too!

 

[Memmeddu]

At 260amps on 6mm plate you should see a heat signature on the back. I was fillet welding 6mm yesterday on about 220amps and the back was cherry red.

260A sounds little bit too much for 6mm I might say...
180A is enough, but they have to be real.

 

[Thebeast]

Fibreglass over leather cover over your glove and a Water-Cooled Torch...

That way you can keep going until you realise you've started slow roasting your hand like a pot roast for Sunday dinner!


No worries, it's a good attitude to have, asking lots of questions and trying to understand why what you're doing works and if you could make it better.

Welding is one of those things that starts off difficult, then gets easy once you get the hang, then suddenly gets more complicated again as you try to do more ambitious things...

It's a cycle that repeats each time you add a new technique to your skillset too!

Thanks I will most likely have to give it ago and see what happens by messing with different settings. I noticed if I lower my wire speed and keep the same voltage the same. I see the wire coming from the nossle and it deposits quite a large ball of weld it’s like it drops off from the end into the puddle. It’s really quiet and no popping sound what so ever. What’s happening there is it just the wire feed is too slow?

Sorry for the multiple questions haha I just get something that comes to my head and I want to know the answers to them lol. I try googling etc but nothing ever explains what I’m looking for

 

[chrismac]

Thanks I will most likely have to give it ago and see what happens by messing with different settings. I noticed if I lower my wire speed and keep the same voltage the same. I see the wire coming from the nossle and it deposits quite a large ball of weld it’s like it drops off from the end into the puddle. It’s really quiet and no popping sound what so ever. What’s happening there is it just the wire feed is too slow?

Sorry for the multiple questions haha I just get something that comes to my head and I want to know the answers to them lol. I try googling etc but nothing ever explains what I’m looking for

You've just found Globular transfer

 

[Memmeddu]

Spray, need argon at or above 80%
voltage up high, wire will not form ball on end, look for a pencilling down on the end of the wire.
Much less noise than short arc, much hotter, more fluid.

....and your glove catches fire to.....

And if done right the weld will look a lot better.
I try to weld everything in spray transfer, then the boss arrives and turns up the wire feed speed cause it says that it sounds wrong .
I love spray because you're actually welding, I weld mostly 8mm and above.

 

[Thebeast]

You've just found Globular transfer

Cool haha I didn’t realise there was such as thing lol. Is there anything wrong with globular transfer? Tbh the weld looked fine when that was happening but it just didn’t feel correct so I literally bumped the wire feed up a small amount and I could hear the bacon sizzling sound and it felt abit better

 

[chrismac]

Cool haha I didn’t realise there was such as thing lol. Is there anything wrong with globular transfer? Tbh the weld looked fine when that was happening but it just didn’t feel correct so I literally bumped the wire feed up a small amount and I could hear the bacon sizzling sound and it felt abit better

I'll let Jelly answer he is near guru level!!

For me no, for some stainless application's I used to quite like it, too slow for carbon steel, wind her up and get her going,

 

[Jelly_Sheffield]

Cool haha I didn’t realise there was such as thing lol. Is there anything wrong with globular transfer? Tbh the weld looked fine when that was happening but it just didn’t feel correct so I literally bumped the wire feed up a small amount and I could hear the bacon sizzling sound and it felt abit better

It's generally not a well liked process as it can result in fairly violent spatter at higher wire feeds (where you'd expect the balling up to be further back and the globule to sort of fly at the weld from ¾" or so away).

What you experienced turning the wire speed down and going into would probably end up a bit on the cold side to get good fusion if you ran a long bead of it.

I am not enough of a guru to know when it really is appropriate to use, but I know there are some use-cases in manufacturing where keeping cost down is critical, and you can tightly control the welding environment, maybe one of the posters who are involved in more production welding can chip in and educate us both.

 

[Memmeddu]

Cool haha I didn’t realise there was such as thing lol. Is there anything wrong with globular transfer? Tbh the weld looked fine when that was happening but it just didn’t feel correct so I literally bumped the wire feed up a small amount and I could hear the bacon sizzling sound and it felt abit better

On Flux core you're actually welding in globular transfer most of the time.
It will almost sound like spray, kinda looks like spray but it's not.

 

[Wozzaaah]

A rough guide to setting your wire speed for any given voltage:
Set the wire speed control about half way, start to weld, turn the wire feed up slowly until you feel the torch start to be pushed away from the workpiece, reduce the wire speed until it stabilises.
As I said, a rough guide but it will get you somewhere near where you want to be.