New to mig, penetration problem??

  1. Fossy Member

    Messages:
    100
    Location:
    Jersey
    Hi chaps,

    I have had a Clarke 151en for a couple of years now, done the odd bit of welding here and there but nothing structural I’m talking, putting fishing hooks onto the end of poles to use as gaffs, the odd bracket here and there to hold tools in my workshop, I had the idea of welding a mini once but that fell through.

    I have recently purchased a cheap Land Rover defender, a couple of areas in the chassis needs patching but it needs a rear crossmember, having done research the metal it is made out of is 2mm-3mm anyways I had a couple of steel brackets I found and thought I would run some beads..... these are my first proper beads since getting the welder, however I am seriously having trouble with penetration, I can seem to run ok ish amateur beads (probably not when you see lol) but from the space of one second I seem to get no penetration to blow through, I numbered these beads but unfortunately I didnt write down which wire settings were which, the Clarke 151en was on max settings all the time shifting between 7-8 wire speed, maybe the welder just struggles to comfortably do 3mm??

    Anyways the main area I need to do on the Land Rover is a rear chassis, the type that fits over then you do a “lap joint”??? Not sure if that’s the term but basically the box section of the chassis goes over the original and you weld it,

    I really want to weld the chassis myself but I’m not sure where to go from here, it literally seemed to go from one second longer on the bead and blow through or keep travelling and then not much penetration on the other side.

    Number 9 is a buttweld, which for the chassis patches I’ll be doing as well..

    Cheers for the help in advance and thanks for any advice!!
     
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  2. angellonewolf

    angellonewolf Member

    Messages:
    4,477
    Location:
    bristol england
    the metal looks dirty to me clean up where your welding and also clean up where you are putting the return clamp start on the basics

    and doing a 3 mm plate is not the same as doing a but joint there is a gap there for it to penatrate

    there will be better people than me to give more and better advice
     
  3. Fossy Member

    Messages:
    100
    Location:
    Jersey
    Cheers angel,

    Only one of the plates had rust on which was on the underside in a section that I didn’t realise, still no excuse for not cleaning,

    The but welds will be fine i think for the patching but I’m more worried about the “lapjoint” for the rear crossmember that is basically the same as welding one plate onto another
     
  4. gaz1

    gaz1 Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    9,104
    Location:
    westyorkshire
    ive used mine on many cars now including landys
     
  5. Fossy Member

    Messages:
    100
    Location:
    Jersey
    Cheers gaz, must be me I just can’t seem to get the right penetration if I go to slow I mean literally hold over a second more I get blow through if not I don’t seem to get a decent amount of penetration, nice to know it’s ok to use up to 5mm tho!
     
  6. gaz1

    gaz1 Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    9,104
    Location:
    westyorkshire
    just make sure your wire isnt sticking so replace the wire insert

    pic welding on a landy suspension points 3mm to 3mm plate

    20180810_121659.jpg 20180810_134056.jpg 20180810_140438.jpg
     
  7. Fossy Member

    Messages:
    100
    Location:
    Jersey
    Which side is the penetration gaz?
     
  8. gaz1

    gaz1 Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    9,104
    Location:
    westyorkshire
    its edge of plate on those to good parent metal

    the pics are large so open in new tab click on pic then download them to have a larger view of them
     
  9. When you're just laying beads on plate there is no need to have a penetration bead on the reverse side of the plate, if you get one it's likely to be an indication things are getting a bit hot and on the verge of burning through
     
    defender dan likes this.
  10. addjunkie

    addjunkie Member

    Messages:
    5,449
    Location:
    Northumberland. Reet oot in the sticks
    Does your machine do gas and gasless. If so check the polarity of your machine, make sure its not set up fir gas less
     
  11. Fossy Member

    Messages:
    100
    Location:
    Jersey
    It does junkie and the polarity is set up correctly

    So purge, are you saying the penetration on my welds are ok then??
     
  12. Yep, people get a bit hung up about getting a penetration bead on flat plate but when welding professionally this is a big no no, in fact it is a reason for a fail on a weld test. It's a completely different matter if you were doing a butt weld where you are able to control the amount of penetration you are getting by torch manipulation
     
    Lordspectre and Fossy like this.
  13. eddie49 Member

    Frankly those welds are not too bad, especially the butt joint - well up to average garage "MoT Fix" standards.
    Are you sure that you needed to have the machine set to maximum power for the 3mm tests?
    With the narrow test plates that you have, you will always risk blowing through at the end of a bead run, when you get to the edge of the plate and there's no more metal to absorb the heat. If you have more of those plates to practice on, try running along the length instead of across.
    I don't know what the Defender rear crossmember looks like, but the plan "basically the box section of the chassis goes over the original and you weld it" does not sound too good.... Leaving the rusty original underneath and plating over it is not best practice.
     
  14. Fossy Member

    Messages:
    100
    Location:
    Jersey
    Eddie this is the cross member I’m on about, you don’t run it over the rusted chassis it goes over the clean part of the chassis that’s been cut and tidied up, it’s a normal part as to how to properly repair chassis without a replacement full one



    The tests played I measure out to be 3mm plate, the same steel I’d be using for the welding of the patches and the chassis, I have a bit more plate coming down for some small patches and to have another play,

    The setting saying max settings for 2-3mm and the same setting for 3-6 it’s just the wire speed that’s changed

    So are you saying the penetration I have here is good enough for welding on the chassis?

    Cheers for the positive feedback, it’s made me feel a bit better about them!
     
  15. Fossy Member

    Messages:
    100
    Location:
    Jersey
    That’s good news, I have been hung up all day trying to get the weld to penetrate through properly, that’s great! Looks like I’m ok to have a go at the patching then get my confidence up for the chassis then!
     
  16. Shedendman

    Shedendman Member

    Messages:
    3,799
    east sussex
    When you've done a few you wish you didnt know them:laughing:
    @Fossy make sure when you cut the old Xmember off that you clean whats remaining,if it doesn't look good then cut and replace,oh and measure 1000 times make sure alls inline before welding,you only get one shot,mess it up and:mad::mad::mad:,oh and on the offside chassis remove the wiring first;),one should never make that mistake their 1st time around:whistle::laughing:
     
    Fossy likes this.
  17. Fossy Member

    Messages:
    100
    Location:
    Jersey
    Sheden cheers for the tips mate! What have you don’t about the wiring loom? Did you attach a draw cord to it etc? How did you stop it from melting with the welding?

    When you say cut and replace you mean just cut and then remake sections for the crossmember to slide onto?

    I just hope the metal is ok to slide onto first but won’t know until I start grinding!
     
  18. Fossy Member

    Messages:
    100
    Location:
    Jersey
    The main aim it to cut off not enough then slowly cut more off until it fits rather than cut too much off to start with!.... that’s the plan anyway!
     
  19. 8ob

    8ob Forum Supporter

    Messages:
    4,650
    Location:
    moscow on thames
    @Fossy I fitted a new crossmember on my 90 last year, old one had been patched to death and lost its newness so I bought a new one from Premier supplies. When I welded it I cranked up the amps and went like the devil.

    [​IMG]

    Wrapped the loom near the weld zone in ceramic cloth to save pulling it all out and set up some steel as a guide to get the location of the new one spot on.

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Downhand

    [​IMG]
     
    dell boy, decca and Shedendman like this.
  20. Shedendman

    Shedendman Member

    Messages:
    3,799
    east sussex
    t I cranked up the amps and went like the devil.

    [​IMG]

    Wrapped the loom near the weld zone in ceramic cloth to save pulling it all out and set up some steel as a guide to get the location of the new one spot on.

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Downhand

    [​IMG][/QUOTE]
    You lucky sod,you had the body off:laughing::thumbup:
     
    8ob likes this.
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