Learning from Hamburg 1943

[malcolm]

I was in Hamburg in Germany at the weekend in search of old buildings. There aren't any. We demolished them all in 1943.

I came across the St Nikolai memorial. At the bottom the visitor sign is dedicated to "the victims of war and Tyranny 1933-1945" and mentions the air raids. It is nicely written. We did bad, you did bad and this is all that remains.

After WW2 there was some idea we might learn from this and try to sort things out rather than pick sides and go for it until there is nothing left again Facebook doesn't think that crazy idea fits with the current narrative so I'm posting here.

 

[Tinbasherdan]

I was in Hamburg in Germany at the weekend in search of old buildings. There aren't any. We demolished them all in 1943.

I came across the St Nikolai memorial. At the bottom the visitor sign is dedicated to "the victims of war and Tyranny 1933-1945" and mentions the air raids. It is nicely written. We did bad, you did bad and this is all that remains.

After WW2 there was some idea we might learn from this and try to sort things out rather than pick sides and go for it until there is nothing left again Facebook doesn't think that crazy idea fits with the current narrative so I'm posting here.

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Without a doubt a terrible event. The same as Dresden, but let’s not ignore the events that caused them. Bombing Coventry to an extent the German high command had to make up a new word to explain what they’d done was a major factor, and the truth is that we didn’t have the technology to precision bomb military/industrial targets. A weapon was on target if it was within 3 miles of the intended area. It was a necessary evil, however I see a lot of “woke” articles about how we should be ashamed.

 

[Morrisman]

Without a doubt a terrible event. The same as Dresden, but let’s not ignore the events that caused them. Bombing Coventry to an extent the German high command had to make up a new word to explain what they’d done was a major factor, and the truth is that we didn’t have the technology to precision bomb military/industrial targets. A weapon was on target if it was within 3 miles of the intended area. It was a necessary evil, however I see a lot of “woke” articles about how we should be ashamed.

Exactly. Hitlers war plan was based on blitzkrieg, sudden and devastating attacks without warning, total annihilation of as much as possible. It worked very well across Europe.
Old folks in England still talk of 'The Blitz', when Hitler carpet bombed London every night for months.
Anybody who whines and cries about Dresden is showing their ignorance

 

[Redsailor]

I remember when I was in Berlin in the early 1970's seeing an old church that had been very badly damaged by allied bombing. It had been preserved as it was as a sort of memorial and a warning of the awful things that can happen. The Berlin wall was also a grim reminder that perhaps things had not become much better.

 

[stuvy]

I’d never given that much thought

It’s strange to think the luftwaffe did the same here as they were only protecting there country

 

[Morrisman]

I’d never given that much thought

It’s strange to think the luftwaffe did the same here as they were only protecting there country

 

[Lewis_RX8]

only protecting there country

Maybe towards the end but dont think the blitz was about protecting germany more aimed to soften the defenses so they can invade

 

[stuvy]

What’s up?

 

[Tinbasherdan]

I’d never given that much thought

It’s strange to think the luftwaffe did the same here as they were only protecting there country

I have a feeling that there were other motives for Germany bombing other people, being as until they decided to go waving guns about nobody was particularly bothered about bombing them…….

 

[Tinbasherdan]

A report by the British in 1940 found that less than a third of bombs dropped by the RAF made it to within 5 miles of the target. This, coupled with the lessons learnt during the blitz on the effects of German firebombing of our population made it a no brainer to area bomb using a mixture of HE and incendiary to gain maximum effect against the German people.

 

[Morrisman]

What’s up?

I seem to recall from school history lessons that the Germans were trying to conquer the world, so how exactly does them bombing the snot out of London, and other major cities, become 'protecting there country'

 

[stuvy]

I seem to recall from school history lessons that the Germans were trying to conquer the world, so how exactly does them bombing the snot out of London, and other major cities, become 'protecting there country'

You’d sit back and be invaded or stand and fight?

Don’t forget they had a lot of propaganda

 

[Morrisman]

You’d sit back and be invaded or stand and fight?

Don’t forget they had a lot of propaganda

So we were invading Germany? Damn, I always knew our history teacher was an odd one.......

 

[Tinbasherdan]

You’d sit back and be invaded or stand and fight?

Don’t forget they had a lot of propaganda

I have absolutely no idea where you’re going with this? I assume, as do others it seems that you appear to be justifying the Germans bombing us as “defending their country against invaders”, right? Propaganda aside, there is historically no doubt that Germany, and in particular the Nazi party lead by one mr. A Hitler kicked the whole shebang off with a major OFFENSIVE attack

 

[Morrisman]

A report by the British in 1940 found that less than a third of bombs dropped by the RAF made it to within 5 miles of the target. This, coupled with the lessons learnt during the blitz on the effects of German firebombing of our population made it a no brainer to area bomb using a mixture of HE and incendiary to gain maximum effect against the German people.

I'd imagine there were very quick improvements in bomb aiming equipment over the following few years.

 

[Tinbasherdan]

I'd imagine there were very quick improvements in bomb aiming equipment over the following few years.

The mkXIV was used from ‘41 onwards by the RAF, as the Americans wouldn’t let us have the Norden bombsight. As it turned out the norden was not useable for nighttime missions in any case. We developed the SABS sight which was almost exclusively used by 617sqn dropping tallboys.

In ‘43 we went to the XIV A , which was just modified to account for missions taking place from higher altitudes.

In 42 the RAF adopted pathfinders to mark targets for bombing which significantly reduced bombing mission error, going from just 1% of bombs hitting the intended target and only a third within 5 miles, to the majority of the bombs impacting within 3 miles total

 

[fizzy]

What always amazes me is the Mosquito could carry almost the same bomb load to Germany as a B17. With far far fewer losses. Amazing plane.
And yes Swansea was destroyed as well. Including about 50 or 60 people rescuing the wounded in one street when delayed action bombs went off
In Swansea - as in many cities - you can see plenty of gaps in terraced houses where bombs went off. Or different coloured roofs etc on Google Earth.
The old Police station in Swansea still has pockmarked walls from shrapnel. People walk past every day and don't give it a second thought

 

[minimutly]

As the young Berlin tourguide on the bus said more than once whilst describing atrocities commited by the Nazis "when ze Nazis came" - he did itnso many times I was tempted to pipe up "what do you mean - "came?" You were here allready...

 

[Kram]

I seem to recall from school history lessons that the Germans were trying to conquer the world, so how exactly does them bombing the snot out of London, and other major cities, become 'protecting there country'

We had our fair share of the world... it was just a bit closer to home as they took the French. School history lessons did not cover much of our past, only the bits they wanted.

Sadly the way the world is going, I am starting to question if the world would be a better place now, if we suffered a bit more and the Germans won?
Japan suffered a lot and they now have no desire for wars.

After Germany fell, the US took in rocket scientists, nazis, pardoned them, to work on new weapons of war to go at it with Russia. Cant allow communism but racism and segregation was, and seems, still is, perfectly ok.

Look at what Israel is doing to Gaza. Several million people under blockade without water, fuel, power, medicines, food or any of the basics. UK, Europe and the US are happy for it to contiue

 

[fizzy]

We had our fair share of the world... it was just a bit closer to home as they took the French. School history lessons did not cover much of our past, only the bits they wanted.

Sadly the way the world is going, I am starting to question if the world would be a better place now, if we suffered a bit more and the Germans won?
Japan suffered a lot and they now have no desire for wars.

After Germany fell, the US took in rocket scientists, nazis, pardoned them, to work on new weapons of war to go at it with Russia. Cant allow communism but racism and segregation was, and seems, still is, perfectly ok.

Look at what Israel is doing to Gaza. Several million people under blockade without water, fuel, power, medicines, food or any of the basics. UK, Europe and the US are happy for it to contiue

If the Germans had won concentration camps would still exist - doesn't bear thinking about.