laying bottles down

[BrokenBiker]

is it safe to use an argoshield light bottle when its on its side?

would make life easier when welding in the shed as its only small and with a bottle stood up there isnt much space to move.

if i can lay it down i can slide it under the bench and just have the collar and reg poking out a bit.

cant see a problem with it as its mostly gas in there as opposed to co2 bottles that are mostly liquid

 

[Screwdriver]

I would expect there to be some liquid argon in there as it's under high pressure. If there is any liquid you can't run it on its side because the liquid gas might jam up the regulator or freeze (or both!).

 

[rtbcomp]

As long as it's all gas you'll be OK.

AFAIK - mixed gasses (Argon/CO2) are in the gaseous state, mixing 2 gasses produces a 3rd gas with properties between the two, you don't get liquid CO2 and gaseous argon.

CO2 on its own is liquid and should be stood up.

Acetylene bottles have liquid inside them and should be stood up.

LPG is liquid (the clue's in the name) and should be stood up where you want a gas (for heating &c). Where you need a liquid (eg fork lift trucks) you use bottles with dip tubes, usually designed for horizontal mounting.

 

[BrokenBiker]

i always thought the bottles were all gas for mixed gasses, but this isnt really a suck it and see type of thing so thought i would ask first. havent got the gas (or welder) yet

 

[Screwdriver]

I would expect there to be some liquid argon in there as it's under high pressure. If there is any liquid you can't run it on its side because the liquid gas might jam up the regulator or freeze (or both!).

Nope. Argon doesn't form a liquid phase in gas bottles. You'd need a cryogenic storage cylinder to liquify it or astronomically high pressure at room temperature.

Should be fine to use on its side.

S.

 

[BrokenBiker]

just had a look on google and this is correct, under bottle pressure argon is gaseous and the co2 and o2 content are also gaseous so no liquid to clog the reg or casue any problems.

as an aside to this i have just remembered about a running prank the welders used to have with the apprentices where i used to work.

they would wait for a mig bottle to run empty, get an apprentice to weld somehting up and then when the welds were crap from no gas coverage they would tell one apprentice to hold the bottle upside down to get the last of the gas out...surprising how many times they fell for it. occasionally there would be some improvement to the weld (becasue argon is heavier than air so there actually was some left in the bottle? doubt it) but more often than not they both realised what had happened fairly quickly after the second weld looked crap too

 

[hotrodder]

The valve in gas cylinders typically won't allow them to be 'completely' emptied and contaminate the inside with atmosphere. While an Ar or Ar/CO2 cylinder will work on it's side it's easy to end up with the regulator in a more vulnerable position...

 

[chunkolini]

I used my bottle on its side for about 5 years, I had it mounted on my mobile work station.
I am still in one piece.

 

[backpurge]

No probs using a compressed gas cylinder like argon mixtures on it's side, just don't do it with CO2, Acetylene or any forms of LPG

 

[Screwdriver]

just had a look on google and this is correct, under bottle pressure argon is gaseous and the co2 and o2 content are also gaseous so no liquid to clog the reg or casue any problems.

as an aside to this i have just remembered about a running prank the welders used to have with the apprentices where i used to work.

they would wait for a mig bottle to run empty, get an apprentice to weld somehting up and then when the welds were crap from no gas coverage they would tell one apprentice to hold the bottle upside down to get the last of the gas out...surprising how many times they fell for it. occasionally there would be some improvement to the weld (becasue argon is heavier than air so there actually was some left in the bottle? doubt it) but more often than not they both realised what had happened fairly quickly after the second weld looked crap too

No. CO2 is actually liquid under pressure and at room temperature. Oxygen remains gaseous but oxy cylinders are under gigantic pressure and you'd have to be a brave man to use on on its side with the regulator exposed. If an Oxy tank regulator comes off, those are the bottles that will fly off like a rocket.

Acetylene is a different kettle of fish entirely. You can't compress it too far without it spontaneously combusting so it is actually dissolved in a solution (typically acetone) under pressure and when the tap is opened the Acetylene comes out of solution as a gas. I guess that means you'd better not use Acetylene on its side or you'll be squirting acetone into your hoses!

S.

<edit> oh, hang on BB you mean the Argon/CO2 mix is gaseous, not CO2 generally?

 

[doubleboost]

Argon is at the same pressure as oxygen in my bottles

 

[Screwdriver]

Argon is at the same pressure as oxygen in my bottles

Oh yeah. 2200 psi. I guess they'd both go up the same then. Except you wouldn't want all that Oxygen anywhere near a fire...

 

[BrokenBiker]

No. CO2 is actually liquid under pressure and at room temperature. Oxygen remains gaseous but oxy cylinders are under gigantic pressure and you'd have to be a brave man to use on on its side with the regulator exposed. If an Oxy tank regulator comes off, those are the bottles that will fly off like a rocket.

Acetylene is a different kettle of fish entirely. You can't compress it too far without it spontaneously combusting so it is actually dissolved in a solution (typically acetone) under pressure and when the tap is opened the Acetylene comes out of solution as a gas. I guess that means you'd better not use Acetylene on its side or you'll be squirting acetone into your hoses!

S.

<edit> oh, hang on BB you mean the Argon/CO2 mix is gaseous, not CO2 generally?

Yes ar/co2 mix is what I will be using.

 

[BrokenBiker]

The valve in gas cylinders typically won't allow them to be 'completely' emptied and contaminate the inside with atmosphere. While an Ar or Ar/CO2 cylinder will work on it's side it's easy to end up with the regulator in a more vulnerable position...

Not much chance of me knocking the reg on my bottle, it's going to be put in my bench with the collar and reg poking out of the side in the gap between the bench and shed wall. Only way it will get damaged is if I drop something down the edge ...may make welding a lip around the bench my first job

 

[Hitch]

just had a look on google and this is correct, under bottle pressure argon is gaseous and the co2 and o2 content are also gaseous so no liquid to clog the reg or casue any problems.

as an aside to this i have just remembered about a running prank the welders used to have with the apprentices where i used to work.

they would wait for a mig bottle to run empty, get an apprentice to weld somehting up and then when the welds were crap from no gas coverage they would tell one apprentice to hold the bottle upside down to get the last of the gas out...surprising how many times they fell for it. occasionally there would be some improvement to the weld (becasue argon is heavier than air so there actually was some left in the bottle? doubt it) but more often than not they both realised what had happened fairly quickly after the second weld looked crap too

Thats an apprentice not to mess with if they can hold gas cylinders upside down

 

[BrokenBiker]

Thats an apprentice not to mess with if they can hold gas cylinders upside down

Only 2 of them managed to hold it off the floor, and they were big lads in all fairness. The others just sort of rested it on something else. Good fun to watch.

The best bit is now that I work somewhere else no one in this factory has heard of any of the pranks we had there so everyone falls for them as long as you keep a straight face

 

[backpurge]

[QUOTE

S.

<edit> oh, hang on BB you mean the Argon/CO2 mix is gaseous, not CO2 generally?[/QUOTE]

Thought that's what I said

 

[Bill Edwards]

Yes, find some means of guarding the reg/nozzle. 230 bar (3400 psi) sends cylinders moving through just about anything in the way, including walls.

 

[BrokenBiker]

All sorted, not using the same bench now as I'm pulling the shed down so the bottle will most likely be upright and chained to the wall when in use