Land Rover hub seals, an idea?

[mowersman]

Afternoon all,
I have a recurring problem with the hub seals on my S2a Land Rover and its starting wind me up. The basic problem is that the seals in the hubs run on a replaceable steel land that is pressed onto the stub axle. When I first got the vehicle, these were all worn, so I replaced them with cheap new ones. Less than 10k miles later, the seals had worn a groove into them . I took them off and inspected, the steel they were made out of may as well have been chocolate, as soft as anything. So I fitted a set of genuine Land Rover ones. No better, still very soft, and another 10k miles and they are all leaking again.
Ok, I think to myself, stick Speedi Sleeves onto the lands, they should be a good bit harder. Thats great until I check the prices of the Speedi sleeves... Ouch! So... I've had an idea but I don;t know if its worth pursuing. I intend buying a set of the cheap lands and turning the OD down, buying some stainless steel tube and making rings to fit over the lands, to be pressed on. My thoughts being that stainless should be a good bit harder than the cheese, sorry steel that the lands are made out of, even without hardening it. Any idea if its worth me having a go at, or whether the stainless would be no good in that application. Its 304L grade, the stuff I'm looking at.
Cheers
Andrew

 

[octo0072000]

turn up a set of lands out of stainless or harder steel than the cheese
ask doubleboost about it he comes to mind as a good machinist

 

[Kent]

Your making a problem for any future owner for sure
Why are you doing 10 k in such a vehicle. Do you own a filling station and like being uncomfortable lol!

 

[penfold]

304 is pretty soft, you want something harder.

 

[colnerov]

Your making a problem for any future owner for sure
Why are you doing 10 k in such a vehicle. Do you own a filling station and like being uncomfortable lol!

I don't think he's doing all at once.

 

[RonA]

Afternoon all,
I have a recurring problem with the hub seals on my S2a Land Rover and its starting wind me up. The basic problem is that the seals in the hubs run on a replaceable steel land that is pressed onto the stub axle. When I first got the vehicle, these were all worn, so I replaced them with cheap new ones. Less than 10k miles later, the seals had worn a groove into them . I took them off and inspected, the steel they were made out of may as well have been chocolate, as soft as anything. So I fitted a set of genuine Land Rover ones. No better, still very soft, and another 10k miles and they are all leaking again.
Ok, I think to myself, stick Speedi Sleeves onto the lands, they should be a good bit harder. Thats great until I check the prices of the Speedi sleeves... Ouch! So... I've had an idea but I don;t know if its worth pursuing. I intend buying a set of the cheap lands and turning the OD down, buying some stainless steel tube and making rings to fit over the lands, to be pressed on. My thoughts being that stainless should be a good bit harder than the cheese, sorry steel that the lands are made out of, even without hardening it. Any idea if its worth me having a go at, or whether the stainless would be no good in that application. Its 304L grade, the stuff I'm looking at.
Cheers
Andrew

Isn't there a relationship between the hardness of the two bearing/seal surfaces for optimum wear/life. Would making the seal land harder actually reduce rather than enhance the working life of the seals. Are the seals being subjected to harsh working conditions ?
RonA

 

[mowersman]

turn up a set of lands out of stainless or harder steel than the cheese
ask doubleboost about it he comes to mind as a good machinist

Good thinking, I could turn up a complete set of lands, my only thinking was that with my lathe not being the most accurate thing in the world, at least the critical diameter would already be turned. Also I could get away with buying SS tube, rather than bar. Worth a thought though!

Your making a problem for any future owner for sure
Why are you doing 10 k in such a vehicle. Do you own a filling station and like being uncomfortable lol!

For the foreseeable future, I'm the owner. I have zero intention of selling it! As for the 10k a year, Why not. I am completely disinterested in modern cars, this is my only vehicle currently. It runs on chip oil at 20ppl and with a slightly more modern engine and decent seats, cruises at 70 very comfortably.

304 is pretty soft, you want something harder.

Thanks, this is why I asked on here, when it comes down to materials, I really haven't much of a clue.
Anything you could recommend as an alternative?

Cheers
Andrew

 

[rtbcomp]

Are you lubricating the oil seals before fitting them? Leather oil seals should be should soaked in oil overnight before fitting.

 

[711jrp]

How often do you use it off road? the mod gets everywhere and acts like grinding paste, it's all part of the fun.

 

[penfold]

Isn't there a relationship between the hardness of the two bearing/seal surfaces for optimum wear/life. Would making the seal land harder actually reduce rather than enhance the working life of the seals. Are the seals being subjected to harsh working conditions ?
RonA

The hardness only affects the wear rate of the land; the quality of the finish on the land, lubrication, speed of rotation/temperature are the main things affecting the seal. The hardest aspect of turning your own will be getting the press fit size right so you can get it on without damaging it while not being so loose it starts rotating. Turning the outside will be easy enough with a sharp tool and finishing with a fine file or emery board; lip seals have a reasonable tolerance for size variation.

Silver steel is readily available and even without hardening is 50% harder than 304.

 

[octo0072000]

or the other way would be to fit the later 2A or series 3 axles and springs that use seals not the leather felt ones
later axles are called fully floating depends on that it has already

 

[Kent]

Good thinking, I could turn up a complete set of lands, my only thinking was that with my lathe not being the most accurate thing in the world, at least the critical diameter would already be turned. Also I could get away with buying SS tube, rather than bar. Worth a thought though!


For the foreseeable future, I'm the owner. I have zero intention of selling it! As for the 10k a year, Why not. I am completely disinterested in modern cars, this is my only vehicle currently. It runs on chip oil at 20ppl and with a slightly more modern engine and decent seats, cruises at 70 very comfortably.


Thanks, this is why I asked on here, when it comes down to materials, I really haven't much of a clue.
Anything you could recommend as an alternative?

Cheers
Andrew

70 on these breaks and suspension?! Wow! You got guts I shall give you that

 

[penfold]

or the other way would be to fit the later 2A or series 3 axles and springs that use seals not the leather felt ones
later axles are called fully floating depends on that it has already

Didn't the semi-floating axle get superceded on the Series 2? I vaguely recall it was one of those improvements that meandered into production as Solihull used up all the old stock rather than when the Series 2 was introduced in 1958.

 

[mowersman]

Are you lubricating the oil seals before fitting them? Leather oil seals should be should soaked in oil overnight before fitting.

Yup, I put a smear of grease over the lands before fitting the seals. They are Corteco rubber seals, rather than the old type leather ones.

How often do you use it off road? the mod gets everywhere and acts like grinding paste, it's all part of the fun.

It does a bit of green laning a few times a year, but no serious off road stuff/being dumped into muddy puddles. 99% of its miles are on the road.

The hardness only affects the wear rate of the land; the quality of the finish on the land, lubrication, speed of rotation/temperature are the main things affecting the seal. The hardest aspect of turning your own will be getting the press fit size right so you can get it on without damaging it while not being so loose it starts rotating. Turning the outside will be easy enough with a sharp tool and finishing with a fine file or emery board; lip seals have a reasonable tolerance for size variation.

Silver steel is readily available and even without hardening is 50% harder than 304.

Good point about the accuracy of the press fit... That would be the advantage with the idea of sleeving the proper lands with a hard tube of some sort, I guess, I could take them into work and fit the sleeve with a press.
I've looked into your idea about silver steel, but I can't find any bits big enough. The lands are 59.somethingmm diameter.

or the other way would be to fit the later 2A or series 3 axles and springs that use seals not the leather felt ones
later axles are called fully floating depends on that it has already

Didn't the semi-floating axle get superceded on the Series 2? I vaguely recall it was one of those improvements that meandered into production as Solihull used up all the old stock rather than when the Series 2 was introduced in 1958.

Yes, its on the fully floating axles. I believe that was one of the major changes from the S1 to the S2, but don't quote me on that...

70 on these breaks and suspension?! Wow! You got guts I shall give you that

Ha! To be honest, It is all very well set up, on good road biased tyres and it copes just fine. The steering doesn't wander and it feels very planted on the road. Even the brakes are excellent, considering its 50 years old.



My other thought... I'm wondering if its worth trying to harden the off the shelf lands. I assume that even Britpart would try and make them out of a semi reasonable steel, so if heated and quenched, should harden a bit. I may buy a couple and give it a go, they are only cheap...

Cheers for all the advice, thats why I love this forum!
Andrew

 

[wingnut1]

This may seem a little daft but check the axle breathers.
If they are blocked the axle pressure builds and blows the oil out the weakest place, this could be the hub seal the other favourite place is out the ends of the halfshafts.

 

[Bill Edwards]

You might be able to case harden them, but if they're made of really cheap and nasty rubbish with a low carbon content then it won't be possible to harden them by heating and quenching. There is some 'steel' sold that's that bad...

 

[mowersman]

This may seem a little daft but check the axle breathers.
If they are blocked the axle pressure builds and blows the oil out the weakest place, this could be the hub seal the other favourite place is out the ends of the halfshafts.

Cheers, I have replaced the breathers with open extended ones, so hopefully that should eliminate that issue.

You might be able to case harden them, but if they're made of really cheap and nasty rubbish with a low carbon content then it won't be possible to harden them by heating and quenching. There is some 'steel' sold that's that bad...

I'll give it a go, I may see if I've got one lying around and fire up the stove tomorrow...
Andrew

 

[rtbcomp]

Can use something Casenit to harden them?

 

[mowersman]

Can use something Casenit to harden them?

Thats a possibility! The other option I suppose I have is to make my own out of some decent steel and harden them...
My other thought was tool steel, but in the scheme of things, I don't know if its hard enough for running a seal on. Also, I suspect it would be a nightmare to machine...
Andrew

 

[rtbcomp]

AFAIK you'd machine tool steel before hardening it.