Just had a go at wiring me new shed.

[Kayos]

Gas Safe is currently the only recognised register of businesses (including self-employed) who can work on gas installations. Businesses

You can still work on your own installation under Gas Safety (Installation and Use) (Amendment) Regulations 2018 as long as you are "competent" - that's where the problem is. Until the installation disintegrates into its component parts, taking the buildings and anybody in it with them, no-one has any clue you weren't.

What surprised me was "work undertaken as a favour for friends and relatives, and work for which there is no expectation of reward or gain, eg voluntary activity for charities" reads as to being allowed - as I thought that was a no-no under the old regulations and Corgi.

It would have been a lot clearer and simpler if they had banned all DIY work on gas installations, to avoid the self-certifying competency tests being self-applied to those like my dad . . .

But I guess, despite the obvious dangers with gas, its the start of a slippery slope . . . welding your own vehicle . . . working on your own brakes . . . wiring your own plug . . . changing your own light bulb . . . and I am well aware we all know people who really shouldn't be doing any of those!

However, being competent to work on gas has a legal definition, so unless you are qualified you still can't work on it

Its very simple, I could work in my own house despite no longer being on the gas safe register, because my ACS and other qualifications are still valid

 

[mike os]

when it goes wrong they usually go to jail

The rest go to the morgue

 

[MCKDAVID]

Guy in free fall struggling to open his parachute, sees a guy coming up towards him, so he shouts over, "know anything about parachutes mate" the guy replies "no sorry mate, do you know anything about gas cookers......."



Genuine question, are the electronic boards that you repair for gas boilers required to be re certified as before, as part of the repair, or is the responsibility of that transferred to the "gas Safe" technician. If there was a problem ( such as above), where would that repair stand.

 

[Kayos]

Guy in free fall struggling to open his parachute, sees a guy coming up towards him, so he shouts over, "know anything about parachutes mate" the guy replies "no sorry mate, do you know anything about gas cookers......."



Genuine question, are the electronic boards that you repair for gas boilers required to be re certified as before, as part of the repair, or is the responsibility of that transferred to the "gas Safe" technician. If there was a problem ( such as above), where would that repair stand.

Most manufacturers say they don't allow it as it is classed as a modification, BG brought out an updated version of the Isar board, Ideal took them to court over it.

If the board was badly repaired or modified to alter the sequence of operation, the person fitted it would be in trouble if it went wrong or it was found out in some other way.

The sequence of operation for a boiler from demand to ignition to satisfied is set out in legislation so cant be changed

 

[Parm]

Most manufacturers say they don't allow it as it is classed as a modification, BG brought out an updated version of the Isar board, Ideal took them to court over it.

If the board was badly repaired or modified to alter the sequence of operation, the person fitted it would be in trouble if it went wrong or it was found out in some other way.

The sequence of operation for a boiler from demand to ignition to satisfied is set out in legislation so cant be changed

So` that's a no then

 

[Parm]

Most manufacturers say they don't allow it as it is classed as a modification, BG brought out an updated version of the Isar board, Ideal took them to court over it.

If the board was badly repaired or modified to alter the sequence of operation, the person fitted it would be in trouble if it went wrong or it was found out in some other way.

The sequence of operation for a boiler from demand to ignition to satisfied is set out in legislation so cant be changed

Im aware of an accident where an electrician rewired the control board on a roller shutter door.

A woman got caught up in the slatted roller shutter. Her friend came to help and pressed the button for the door to go down. Instead it went up and dragged the woman. The emergency stop didn't work either and the door kept going. The woman was decapitated.

The chap was an electrician, but didn't know a thing about the operational control circuitry of a roller shutter door

 

[James1979]

Im aware of an accident where an electrician rewired the control board on a roller shutter door.

A woman got caught up in the slatted roller shutter. Her friend came to help and pressed the button for the door to go down. Instead it went up and dragged the woman. The emergency stop didn't work either and the door kept going. The woman was decapitated.

The chap was an electrician, but didn't know a thing about the operational control circuitry of a roller shutter door

Some of them have odd quirks. One at a guy I do for will not just stop if it hits something on the way down. It retracts a few feet as well.

Never really thought about it much until one of his donkeys got a tow bar of a truck very slightly under it this week. It went just past while touching the towbar, sensed the obstruction then retracted 4’. Ripping the bottom off the door. I’ve no idea why it does that but it’s an expensive quirk.

 

[Parm]

Some of them have odd quirks. One at a guy I do for will not just stop if it hits something on the way down. It retracts a few feet as well.

Never really thought about it much until one of his donkeys got a tow bar of a truck very slightly under it this week. It went just past while touching the towbar, sensed the obstruction then retracted 4’. Ripping the bottom off the door. I’ve no idea why it does that but it’s an expensive quirk.

Its a safety featrure, prevents folks getting crushed, not good for tow bars and the health of the door

 

[bricol]

That’s a misinterpretation of what the law requires. You must be deemed competent before anyone works on a gas installation. It why folk do all the training, education and qualifications to become competent and gain Gas Safe

Unless you have a working knowledge, understanding and application of these or any regs a quick blast on the internet doesn’t maketh an expert

Competency isnt knowing what you know, it’s understanding what you don’t know.

People do work on thier own installation, when it goes wrong they usually go to jail

It does indeed say you "have to be competent" and goes on to explain "competent" - but when someone decides they are, what stops them?

You don't "gain" GasSafe - you apply, and pay a fee, to be on their register, providing evidence of training and qualifications. I assume they actually check with the relevant establishments that the provided documentation is actually real, but as with all the horror stories of sold houses, lost money from banks, cloned cars etc from other organisations either not checking or being taken in by copies, do they? I'd hope, but as part of the process, they inspect installations of new members, so you;d hope they'd find the chancers.

So if someone did all the training, got exactly the safe documents, then I guess, until something goes "boom", much they are assumed to be "competent", much like someone actually on the register. And can work on their own installation, and how it appears to be worded, other peoples if they don't charge or do it as part of their business.

My point was, and in agreement with you, there is absolutely nothing out there to prevent Tom, Dick, or Sue, from deciding, from google, YouTube, they are competent, as per the wording in the regs, from their "combination of practical skill, training, knowledge and experience to carry out the job in hand safely, and ensuring the installation is left in a safe condition for use" and leaping in with a pipe cutter, and a pair of stilsons.

And you, I, or Harry, living up the street, don't know they aren't until it goes wrong - which is a bit late for those saying hello to the bloke dangling from the parachute. It doesn't seem to specifically say you must have this or that qualification,

GasSafe Register do at least require some recognised qualifications.

So it surprises me the regs just simply say "you can't do it" unless you are on the register - ie at least had a go at proving competency.

 

[bricol]

As ever, Covid . . .
From the Gas Safe website (can you tell I'm bored today - the weather and after-effects of an armful of Pfizer mean I'm not out doing something useful)

*Note: As a result, the COVID-19 guidance issued by UK Government, HSE agreed to allow registered engineers whose certificates of gas safety competence expire to remain registered during the period of COVID-19 restrictions. This provision remains under continuous review by HSE and businesses and engineers must take steps to renew their gas safety qualifications as soon as is possible.

 

[bricol]

Some of them have odd quirks. One at a guy I do for will not just stop if it hits something on the way down. It retracts a few feet as well.

Never really thought about it much until one of his donkeys got a tow bar of a truck very slightly under it this week. It went just past while touching the towbar, sensed the obstruction then retracted 4’. Ripping the bottom off the door. I’ve no idea why it does that but it’s an expensive quirk.

Mine does that. And will do that even it its shut completely and you happen to trigger the safety beam within a certain time - it opens the flippin' door again. Which if I'm just slipping in the security bolts at the bottom is a touch upsetting as the door tries to reshape itself

Much like car windows - Fiat had an issue where a toddler stood on an electric window switch as he/she leant out the window - it came up and I seem to remember, killed them as it kept going, and despite triggering the thermal fuse, it kept the pressure on their neck. I think they now drop if they hit an obstruction that isn't the usual shut position.

 

[James1979]

Mine does that. And will do that even it its shut completely and you happen to trigger the safety beam within a certain time - it opens the flippin' door again. Which if I'm just slipping in the security bolts at the bottom is a touch upsetting as the door tries to reshape itself

Much like car windows - Fiat had an issue where a toddler stood on an electric window switch as he/she leant out the window - it came up and I seem to remember, killed them as it kept going, and despite triggering the thermal fuse, it kept the pressure on their neck. I think they now drop if they hit an obstruction that isn't the usual shut position.

I remember the car window one. I think there’s an oddity that it only needs to do it in the front? I’ve tried it on several newer cars and the backs don’t do it. Unless it’s with the switches within a distance of the windows. That may be it.

 

[Parm]

but when someone decides they are, what stops them?

Competence isn't self declared. Its inferred by education, qualification, training and experience. Usually assessed by examination and often requires the upkeep of CPD

I am an examiner for my professional organisation. Regularly we (a panel of three) examine candidates in a one hour oral examination. All have done the requisite reading and learning, but very few make the cut as they have little to sod all practical application experience

Quite a lot of folk think they are competent. Very few actually are

Example. I have all the major plumbing kit at home, im quite good at cutting copper pipe and making a soldered connection. Ive done this quite successfully a good number of times for various projects. BUT im not competent at doing any of this when it comes to gas as there is a whole heap more to than just making a soldered connection.

Before anyone says i don't have gas at home. I run on oil and electricity

 

[mike os]

Probably the first step in becoming competent is knowing what you don’t know.

Competence in relation to gas work is a firm grasp of the regulations, law, and the ability to design and install a system that is compliant and safe. Ie you know what you are doing, why it’s done that way, can do it to a recognisable standard, and have sufficient knowledge and experience to both justify your choices and defend your position when questioned.

If you can solder or make mechanical joints in metal pipe you can install gas pipe … it’s not hard… but do you know why it’s done that way? Can you test to the required standards? Do you understand the individual installation requirements? Do you know it’s safe? (Guessing or because next door like that and is fine that way doesn’t cut it).

Much as I dislike schemes like gas safe and niciec etc it is intended to require those working with gas to demonstrate their understanding, skill and knowledge of the relevant regulations thus showing sufficient competence under the law to carry out this specific area of work.

You may be able to demonstrate sufficient competence and knowledge outside of Gas Safe, but if you fail you are probably going to jail… and if anyone is hurt or property damaged it’s pretty much a done deal.

So is it really worth it?

Oh and if you are doing it as a job you are already breaking the law even if you can prove competence

 

[The Artilleryman]

I remember when we had a new WB gas boiler fitted in our last house.
British Gas quoted and said we need a larger bore feed to the boiler (confirmed by WB in the installation manual), what they proposed was ugly and in my opinion potentially dangerous.

Had local company (been in business over 10 years, with good reputation), asked if I could run the new gas feed (from meter, NOT CONNECTED to) this was agreed to, as long as all joints soldered (not compression), they could inspect it and it was gas tight.
They would make the connections both ends.
All pipework was inside and protected from damage, unlike the BG quote.
Done under CORGI regs.

Only dangerous bit was soldering in a confined space - as we still scuba dived in those days, it was a case of 15L cylinder long hose to DV so I could breath easily - if gas blow torch went out I was still safe and breathing.

 

[Kayos]

I remember when we had a new WB gas boiler fitted in our last house.
British Gas quoted and said we need a larger bore feed to the boiler (confirmed by WB in the installation manual), what they proposed was ugly and in my opinion potentially dangerous.

Had local company (been in business over 10 years, with good reputation), asked if I could run the new gas feed (from meter, NOT CONNECTED to) this was agreed to, as long as all joints soldered (not compression), they could inspect it and it was gas tight.
They would make the connections both ends.
All pipework was inside and protected from damage, unlike the BG quote.
Done under CORGI regs.

Only dangerous bit was soldering in a confined space - as we still scuba dived in those days, it was a case of 15L cylinder long hose to DV so I could breath easily - if gas blow torch went out I was still safe and breathing.

That is now specifically disallowed under the regs
When gas engineers work together whoever does the gas and the flue signs the job off, as they take full responsibility

 

[Lewis_RX8]

I remember when we had a new WB gas boiler fitted in our last house.
British Gas quoted and said we need a larger bore feed to the boiler (confirmed by WB in the installation manual), what they proposed was ugly and in my opinion potentially dangerous.

Had local company (been in business over 10 years, with good reputation), asked if I could run the new gas feed (from meter, NOT CONNECTED to) this was agreed to, as long as all joints soldered (not compression), they could inspect it and it was gas tight.
They would make the connections both ends.
All pipework was inside and protected from damage, unlike the BG quote.
Done under CORGI regs.

Only dangerous bit was soldering in a confined space - as we still scuba dived in those days, it was a case of 15L cylinder long hose to DV so I could breath easily - if gas blow torch went out I was still safe and breathing.

That is now specifically disallowed under the regs
When gas engineers work together whoever does the gas and the flue signs the job off, as they take full responsibility

Interesting , Never really touched gas side of boilers myself. So what you are saying is that the way some people do electric installation jobs DIY but then have a competent electrician inspect it and tick it off as compliant, Was possible under Corgi but is not anymore.

cheers

 

[Dave-sparks]

As long as you are happy with your soldering I would not change to the locknut style earthing connection as they, like the SWA glands and shrouds supplird today, are of excruciatingly bad quality!

What's wrong with earthing nuts? I've never found a problem with them and they make a more solid connection than the banjo does.

 

[Kayos]

Interesting , Never really touched gas side of boilers myself. So what you are saying is that the way some people do electric installation jobs DIY but then have a competent electrician inspect it and tick it off as compliant, Was possible under Corgi but is not anymore.

cheers

Essentially it's last man (person) on the job rule, however signing off someone else's work is forbidden

I had a few people who offered to "help" on jobs in exchange for cheaper prices, my answer was, without fail, no.

 

[Lewis_RX8]

Essentially it's last man (person) on the job rule, however signing off someone else's work is forbidden

I had a few people who offered to "help" on jobs in exchange for cheaper prices, my answer was, without fail, no.

Ah yes makes sense bit different to electrical regs.