Joggling?.

[Keithmac]

Hello all, I have already bought a manual and pneumatic Joggler ready for repairing my car bodywork.

I've read on here some comments where people say joggling is a bad technique and will promote rust problems?.

My idea was to joggle the car panels, make repair panels to fit, set up with cleacos (sp?) and then weld and prep.

The weld, prep and paint would be done in same day due to working outside and picking dry days!. Not the same day as setting up the panels.

If butt welding is significantly better I will change my approach but to be honest lap welding with joggled panels seems likely to give me a better result (as an amateur?).

Any comments welcome, rather do it right first time around.

Cheers, Keith.

 

[addjunkie]

Joggling you create an area between the two bits of metal to trap moisture

 

[Beanwood]

How much welding have you done?

I have presumed mig welding here?

I haven't done enough, but I'm sure it's easier to weld a joggled piece. For a butt weld on thin metal, without practice, you'll probably find yourself blowing holes through and having to build back up the two sides.
You could reduce the argument against joggling if you weld both 'end' sections.

 

[droopsnoot]

It often is easier to weld a joggled section, but the issue as above is that you're effectively creating a seam, and if you're repairing a car from the 60s/70s/80s, you already know what happens when moisture gets into a seam. There's enough space for moisture to get in (even if it's only as condensation) but it takes an age to dry. You can mitigate it by using weld-through primer in the overlapping areas, sealing both sides properly and applying a lot of rustproofing to both sides of the finished repair, but I prefer to do a butt joint where I can though it isn't possible everywhere.

 

[Keithmac]

I've done a fair bit of welding but no expert by any means!.

Think the extra meat behind a joggled joint would help not blowing as many holes through the panels as you say!.

Will have a think..

 

[minimutly]

It often is easier to weld a joggled section, but the issue as above is that you're effectively creating a seam, and if you're repairing a car from the 60s/70s/80s, you already know what happens when moisture gets into a seam. There's enough space for moisture to get in (even if it's only as condensation) but it takes an age to dry. You can mitigate it by using weld-through primer in the overlapping areas, sealing both sides properly and applying a lot of rustproofing to both sides of the finished repair, but I prefer to do a butt joint where I can though it isn't possible everywhere.

Good answer I recon - I’d add that all cars are constructed with a joggle or overlap. Personally I like to make the joggle small as possible to minimise the moisture issue as well. If you have it on the weld side you can use it to feed the weld, then grind off. Anything’s better than a but weld in thin sheet.

 

[bricol]

Anything’s better than a but weld in thin sheet.

Its the thought of having to redo it all in a few years time from trapped moisture - worse is trapped dust from use, then getting wet and holding it nice and wet and corrosive in between panels.

I have a manual joggler, bought maybe 35 yrs ago . . . sheer effort of using it made me learn to butt weld better . . . and I bought a pneumatic one maybe a decade ago . . . used it for all sorts, but never bodywork repair.

Right welder, right prep, right technique, and butt welding is very possible

 

[Dcal]

I think the water trap issue with joggling is a bit of a non issue.
If done correctly and if the back of the repair is treated with a good wax to I don't see why it wouldn't last.
The sill to floor pan joint on every car I can think of is a far worse detail and I don't see people recommending deseaming this joint. (Or the numerous other similar joints on a vehicle.)
The lip adds strength and also helps to limit distortion.

In fairness I butt weld most things as I find it easier, but if I only had access to gasless wire, I might be tempted to spend the time getting a joggled repair panel to line up nicely and that is not necessarily that easy.

 

[Keithmac]

I've got zinc loaded weld through primer and Dynax-S50 to finish inside panels so hopefully that will mitigate some corrosion.

My only fear with butt welding is I'll spend an age getting panel fitting spot on then blow a load of holes through it with gasless wire!.

I think joggled end of my pneumatic joggler leaves a 10mm lip but if I have to take it down to 5mm then fair enough.

Thanks for all the replies, very helpful .

 

[droopsnoot]

My only fear with butt welding is I'll spend an age getting panel fitting spot on then blow a load of holes through it with gasless wire!.

From what I've read, that certainly won't help matters.

 

[steveo3002]

i recently did a polo sill , the replacement panel was so thin , then my lack of skills i figured it would be paper thin after grinding so i joggled it

ideal world with decent panels , enough experience to do a nice butt join then yes 100% do that ....semi skilled diyer with sub standard panels maybe better to joggle it

 

[GRW]

I've got zinc loaded weld through primer and Dynax-S50 to finish inside panels so hopefully that will mitigate some corrosion.

My only fear with butt welding is I'll spend an age getting panel fitting spot on then blow a load of holes through it with gasless wire!.

I think joggled end of my pneumatic joggler leaves a 10mm lip but if I have to take it down to 5mm then fair enough.

Thanks for all the replies, very helpful .

As Droopsnoot said - gasless wire. I had a lot of difficulty with gasless and my basic gasless mig when I started.
But... if outside under the vehicle and its draughty - then like me sometimes you have little choice.
Gasless wire seems to burn hotter than solid wire, so on thin panels it does make life harder.
That said, I've tried gasless (Flux Core) in Oxford, and it's certainly better with a better welder.
If the panels are 0.7-0.8mm thin stuff (like lots of my LDV is), then butt welding may be a royal pain in the butt!
I'd rather joggled lapped joints than blowing holes or cold-weld joints (or both) if those were the options.

 

[hotponyshoes]

If using a pneumatic joggler do a test bit first and make sure the offset leaves the panel flush.
Mine is not adjustable (or if it is, I've not read the manual) and takes it too far on bodywork thickness material.
I've got some big Terry clips that sit on the jaw ton pack it out to the right thickness.

Clecos work nicely, put a load of them in there then remove them one at a time and hit through one panel with a spot weld drill using the cleco hole as a guide. Then you can fill both holes at the same time.

Seam sealer is designed exactly for the job of sealing it all up. Do it as soon as you can after welding as the heat from the welds will drive the moisture out.
The joggled section will be twice as thick as the rest of the panel so will take twice as long to rust through.
Ie. That part will last twice as long as the rest of the panels even if you don't treat it with anything at all!
If you are particularly worried about it then work out which way water is likely to spray/run onto the joint and posotion the joggle appropriately so it runs over it rather than into it.

 

[tom2207]

think of it this way ,,,, anything that has a spot weld on it is already two layers thick , basically a joggle in all but name , very few joggle joints are so tight that water wont run out of them ,, and a butt welded joint still leaves a bead on the inside if done well , and iv done poorly it leaves an edge and a thin point , neither of those is immune to rust ,,, its more important to post treat the work youve done , many different ideas on that but.
I dont worry about joggle joints at all ,,

As I have ACF50 on my side ,,,

 

[GRW]

think of it this way ,,,, anything that has a spot weld on it is already two layers thick , basically a joggle in all but name ,
I dont worry about joggle joints at all ,,

But I have ACF50 on my side ,,,

I thought ACF50 was dead expensive?

 

[tom2207]

I thought ACF50 was dead expensive?

Have you any idea what I charge for welding ,,,


ACF50 , is dead cheap by comparison..


messing aside , yes its expensive , but its a lot better than going back in a year or two to repair , paint is a lot more expensive than prevention ,,

An ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure.

 

[steveo3002]

£25 a litre isnt that bad....prob do most of a car with it if you dont go mad

 

[keithski122]

You will have a warning that it is rusting as all the filler that you will need to cover it all will blow out first.

 

[minimutly]

£25 a litre isnt that bad....prob do most of a car with it if you dont go mad

Cheap as chips used to be....

 

[steveo3002]

Cheap as chips used to be....

only like having the oven on for a couple of hrs lol