Jaguar rebrand

[brewdexta]

The fire service estimate there are around 100,000 vehicle fires every year in the UK and records for 2022 to 2023 show only 239 EV fires – or 0.24%. The Swedish Contingencies Agency reported that ‘Petrol and diesel cars are 20 times more likely to catch fire than EVs’. In 2022 611,000 vehicle fires were recorded in Sweden of which 23 were EV fires – or 0.004%.

“In America, data from the National Transportation Safety Board reported that battery-powered vehicles suffer 25 fires for every 100,000 sold, compared to 1,530 fires for petrol vehicles. In 2023 US insurer, AutoinsuranceEZ, released a report ‘Gas vs Electric Car Fires (2023 Findings)’ noting that “based on this data electric cars don’t catch fire nearly as much as the news claims.” However it is important to understand that putting out an EV battery fire does take much longer than an ICE vehicle fire.



Sources

Office for Zero Emission Vehicles (OZEV) T0194 – Covered car parks - fire safety guidance for electric vehicles - see pg 21-22

Do electric cars pose a greater fire risk than petrol or diesel vehicles? The Guardian

“The Swedish Civil Contingencies Agency this year found that there were 3.8 fires per 100,000 electric or hybrid cars in 2022, compared with 68 fires per 100,000 cars when taking all fuel types into account.”

 

[More Amps]

The fire service estimate there are around 100,000 vehicle fires every year in the UK and records for 2022 to 2023 show only 239 EV fires – or 0.24%. The Swedish Contingencies Agency reported that ‘Petrol and diesel cars are 20 times more likely to catch fire than EVs’. In 2022 611,000 vehicle fires were recorded in Sweden of which 23 were EV fires – or 0.004%.

“In America, data from the National Transportation Safety Board reported that battery-powered vehicles suffer 25 fires for every 100,000 sold, compared to 1,530 fires for petrol vehicles. In 2023 US insurer, AutoinsuranceEZ, released a report ‘Gas vs Electric Car Fires (2023 Findings)’ noting that “based on this data electric cars don’t catch fire nearly as much as the news claims.” However it is important to understand that putting out an EV battery fire does take much longer than an ICE vehicle fire.



Sources

Office for Zero Emission Vehicles (OZEV) T0194 – Covered car parks - fire safety guidance for electric vehicles - see pg 21-22

Do electric cars pose a greater fire risk than petrol or diesel vehicles? The Guardian

“The Swedish Civil Contingencies Agency this year found that there were 3.8 fires per 100,000 electric or hybrid cars in 2022, compared with 68 fires per 100,000 cars when taking all fuel types into account.”

Interesting data, but of course electric vehicles will likely do a heap less miles per annum so it would be interesting to assess the flammability of ICE v Electric per mile and why are Swedish electric cars so much less likely to catch fire (or is that down to the cold temps over there)

 

[brewdexta]

The missus does about 16k a year in her EV. Several neighbours rack up more in theirs. Several neighbouring ICE devotees have jumped ship to EVs and do the same mileage as they did in ICE cars so I'm not sure the assumption that ICE do a lot more miles is valid anymore.

 

[More Amps]

Point taken - a lazy assumption by me but it would be interesting to know the difference in average annual mileage between them and what the gap (if any) is, and how fast it's reducing.

 

[Ubique]

Interesting data, but of course electric vehicles will likely do a heap less miles per annum so it would be interesting to assess the flammability of ICE v Electric per mile and why are Swedish electric cars so much less likely to catch fire (or is that down to the cold temps over there)

ICE fires are usually down to damage or a defect, whereas BEV thermal events are generally due to construction, design or chemistry flaws - none of which can usually be detected or mitigated prior to a meltdown that a pre-menstrual teenager would be proud of. Of course, there's always the chance of collision damage causing fire (like the Tesla that burned four people to death as the door latches are electrically controlled) BEV fires are always harder to put out as the source of ignition cannot be accessed as 'safely' as an ICE or other source of fire, so they have to be enclosed and flooded with water to bring the temperature down low enough to stop the thermal reaction - the water does not 'put the fire out', it is there to reduce the temperature, not just exclude Oxygen.

 

[DanZac]

Point taken - a lazy assumption by me but it would be interesting to know the difference in average annual mileage between them and what the gap (if any) is, and how fast it's reducing.

From various sources "EV cars now average approximately 400 more miles per annum than ICE vehicles"

EVs are officially covering more miles than ICE cars | Auto Express

Figures show EV drivers cover nearly 450 miles more than petrol or diesel users

www.autoexpress.co.uk

EVs do more miles than petrol and diesel cars | RAC Drive

Owners of electric vehicles (EVs) across Europe are driving more miles annually than those in petrol and diesel cars, research by Nissan suggests.

www.rac.co.uk

 

[rtcosic]

Law of Unintended Consequences.

If I swapped my ICE for a BEV I would do more miles overall and many more at the time and place of highest congestion.
I have mechanical sympathy, so avoid short urban trips that do not allow all the car's components to reach full operating temperature.
I'm a Northumbrian, so I hate high fuel consumption, short trips and long periods of idling.

So I always try to combine trips. Shout at Mrs Google to add items to the shopping list as we think of them. Weekly shopping run that combines the big shop at Lidl, the odds and ends shop at the pound shop, then fill the tank and top-ups at Sainsbury's on the way home.
Once every two weeks or so, into town, park in the multi-storey and walk to the various shops as needed. I might even treat SWMBO to fish, chips, mushy peas and pint/coffee at 'Spoons if she hasn't spent too much at the charity shops - again.
'Anything else you need in town dear, as I must go to ScrewStation for X now'
All timed to avoid the school run times, as we are retired.

If I had a BEV I don't need to think about warming up or idling.
So I won't care if SWMBO did a 3-mile round trip to buy baking yeast because she didn't check stocks before yesterday's shopping trip

I tend to 'baby' my cars with gentle acceleration and braking.
I had No2 son's Jaguar i-Pace for a fortnight.
I drove that 400PS thing digitally. After all, much of the momentum I add by accelerating out of each corner like a teenage loon is recovered by the regenerative braking for the next one. The predicted range didn't change much however hard I drove it around the B roads. Only 'making progress' on motorways did that. The 'fuel' only cost me 4.1p/kWh so was effectively free. The lease cost included tyres. So why wouldn't you drive like Mr Toad with a perma-grin?

If I had a self-driving BEV, I probably wouldn't bother parking in the multi-storey and walking to the shops in town. I would drive up to the door of the shop, tell the car to drive around the block until I told it to stop outside the door when I had finished. Load up, next shop, rinse and repeat. Why would I care about congestion? I'm not sitting in it - the car is.

Can you imagine the traffic around Harrods, Waitrose and the fashion boutiques?

 

[lazybones51]

Do you think people used to have the same arguments when the motor car was invented, and people transitioned from horse and cart to motor cars? "Your motor car is dangerous, it'll burst into flames at any moment, with its hot engine and flammable fuel!", "No, your horse is more dangerous, have you seen how easily hay burns and how many barn fires there have been"

It's like watching children bicker over who the best character is in Peppa Pig .

There's a time and a place for all types of propulsion systems, wether it's pedal power, diesel, petrol, hydrogen, electric, wind, etc etc. Yes we all have our personal preferences and its human nature to resist change, but just because something is new/different to what you know doesn't immediately make it bad.

 

[ajlelectronics]

Do you think people used to have the same arguments when the motor car was invented, and people transitioned from horse and cart to motor cars? "Your motor car is dangerous, it'll burst into flames at any moment, with its hot engine and flammable fuel!", "No, your horse is more dangerous, have you seen how easily hay burns and how many barn fires there have been"

It's like watching children bicker over who the best character is in Peppa Pig .

There's a time and a place for all types of propulsion systems, wether it's pedal power, diesel, petrol, hydrogen, electric, wind, etc etc. Yes we all have our personal preferences and its human nature to resist change, but just because something is new/different to what you know doesn't immediately make it bad.

Unless it is a Musk product.

 

[Ubique]

Unless it is a Musk product.

Now there's a masterclass in turd-polishing.

 

[Ubique]

Wild Ideas​

In the uncertainty of what the public would want, a great many strange contraptions were put together. Joseph Barsaleaux, a blacksmith of Sandy Hill, New York, built a motor horse. In his device, the horse moved on a single wheel about two feet in diameter, with the wheel attached to the shafts just as was a live horse. Reins attached to the mouth of the horse served as a steering gear, because the machinery was inside the horse and had to be regulated some way. The contraption weighed about 550 pounds, had a cruising speed of six miles an hour, and attracted some serious attention.


In Washington there was a vehicle which gained its power by using compressed city gas. George Elrick of Joliet, Illinois, was busy with an engine having no wheels or gears and which manufactured its own gas as it went along. D.I. Lybe of Sidney, Iowa, was the owner of patents on a spring-motor device which stored energy running downhill and used it going uphill, while on level ground he claimed his vehicle would cover 2,000 feet at a maximum speed of 30 miles an hour. Compressed air and superheated water were to be employed by another company. At the time there was more money and in uence back of that idea than was behind all the gasoline-car manufacturers put together.


Cars with steam propulsion came in — not one or two but more than 100. Electric vehicles clogged the market, but in the end, public opinion turned to gasoline because it was clean, safe, and dependable.

This article from the February 8, 1930, issue of the Saturday Evening Post was featured in the Post’s Special Collector’s Edition: Automobiles in America!

Get A Horse! America’s Skepticism Toward the First Automobiles | The Saturday Evening Post

The inventor who claimed the first U.S. car ever sold recalls the birth of the industry and the general public skepticism about automobiles.

www.saturdayeveningpost.com

So yes, as most already know, electric vehicles have been tried before - with some success, most will remember the milk float after all.

Public opinion, whether subsequently shown right or wrong, is what steers the publics money.
As has oft been mentioned before, ask a vehicle technician if they'd put their own money into a BEV... It's also worth saying that if ICE were invented now, you wouldn't be able to refuel them yourself due to H&S concerns.

 

[DanZac]

Public opinion, whether subsequently shown right or wrong, is what steers the publics money.

Public opinion is what steers the publics money, but at the same time the public are fickle and easily swayed.

30 years ago the majority could see no use for mobile phones and many were downright against "Why would I want to lug one of those around / be contacted anywhere"

60 years ago "Why would we want a TV cluttering up the lounge"

And I'm sure there's many more examples.

We just cling to what we know, and human nature resists change, hence why the good old days were so much better.

 

[Nomad]

Major fire at Jaguar / Land Rover - Bromwich

Serious fire at Jaguar Land Rover's car plant as 50 firefighters rush to scene

A huge blaze has ripped through the £500 million Jaguar Land Rover manufacturing plant on Tuesday morning as thick smoke fills the air.

www.lbc.co.uk

 

[Blobber]

Major fire at Jaguar / Land Rover - Bromwich

Serious fire at Jaguar Land Rover's car plant as 50 firefighters rush to scene

A huge blaze has ripped through the £500 million Jaguar Land Rover manufacturing plant on Tuesday morning as thick smoke fills the air.

www.lbc.co.uk

Be them pesky lectric motor vehicle's again

 

[Robotstar5]

Major fire at Jaguar / Land Rover - Bromwich

Serious fire at Jaguar Land Rover's car plant as 50 firefighters rush to scene

A huge blaze has ripped through the £500 million Jaguar Land Rover manufacturing plant on Tuesday morning as thick smoke fills the air.

www.lbc.co.uk

 

[Ubique]

Not JLR related, but sort-of relevant given the chance of spontaneous ignition...
Seat Cupra something-or-other hybrid with a low coolant alarm, on the HV side (the narrative said dealer had found coolant in the transmission, should have read on the transmission) not the ICE side, the HV coolant level was very low but as I found out when I removed the coolant reservoir cap, highly pressurised - once the pressure was released, the coolant level was almost within the high/low limits. Now on hybrids, there are limited causes for coolant pressurisation as it's generally regarded as a low temperature circuit - coolant electric pump failed, HV battery internal defect or PTC heater thermistor failed. None of which had happened or caused a DTC to be set. Now after releasing the pressure, I noticed there were still occasional bubbles in the coolant reservoir, so I put the cap back on for a couple of minutes, then stuck my refrigerant 'sniffer' into the top of the reservoir

Yep, refrigerant leaking into the coolant circuit through the heat exchanger.
The big problem is that the refrigerant will support combustion - it's classed as 'flammable', but barely, it's more of an accelerant... Now if this was to happen with a PTC heater fault or a HV battery internal leak, it would/could very easily lead to an under-bonnet fire. Of course, the 'old' R134A refrigerant is inert but contains Halogens so is therefore 'bad' - not as bad as our saviour, Lithium, but 'bad' as in 'less bad than it's predecessor but we must make the industry do better', much along the lines of EU5 to 6 emissions standards....

Anyway, back to the JLR fire - is it a major fire if it was extinguished in about an hour and fully damped down over another two?

 

[pint]

Major fire at Jaguar / Land Rover - Bromwich

Serious fire at Jaguar Land Rover's car plant as 50 firefighters rush to scene

A huge blaze has ripped through the £500 million Jaguar Land Rover manufacturing plant on Tuesday morning as thick smoke fills the air.

www.lbc.co.uk

as jag aren't doing so well we can't rule out an 'insurance job'

 

[Nomad]

A few more EV news articles got sent to me recently, posting them here as general "EV news"

Faulty EVs can now be transported inside sealed containers - a recent recovery from Shetland saw the recovery driver on the passenger ferry & the container sent as freight on a cargo ship.

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

some ferry companies already refuse to transoport failed EVs due to safety concerns.
Eg Vancouver (USA) https://www.nsnews.com/highlights/t...-after-policy-change-from-bc-ferries-10887892

Elton received $$$ millions last year from EV tax credits, the scheme has been stopped this year.

Tesla Made $2.76 Billion From ZEV Credits In 2024 In US But Trump's Tax Bill Just Killed This Revenue Stream - Tesla (NASDAQ:TSLA)

Donald Trump's tax bill eliminates crucial revenue stream for Tesla, but better-than-expected Q2 deliveries could bring a silver lining.

www.benzinga.com

EVs are a new thing so it's no surprise that systems around them are still settling down. We live in interesting times.

 

[malcolm]

Noticed in a Chinese auto plant the EVs are being transported in shipping containers. Nifty things- they lift off the back of the truck so no ramp to get on. Don't know if it is for security for prototype cars, for fire, or if it's just the way they do things.