Is this structural, can I remove it?

[Gareth J]

My opinion, nice barn!

Re. The beam, it's not cut and dried as reflected by the posts here. It's very unlikely to be a problem if removed if it's just popped in the inner stone face either end. But at the same time, it's potentialy not doing absolutely nothing either.

You could approach it cautiously and excavate above the ends of the beam and see what's in there. A more gentle approach than attacking one end with a chainsaw anyway.

 

[eLuSiVeMiTe]

lets stop dallying about , pull it out and if everything stays where it is happy days.

You did say builder right.
That's a standard builder response there.

I think he'd take offence at brickie.

Only in jest however unless he wants to sign a letter saying it will be structurally sound his opinion and ours are worthless

As per earlier posts. Get a SE to advise.

 

[addjunkie]

Assuming the ridge is sitting on the righthand wall technically the roof should push inwards so not needed.

Without knowing all details its hard to advise

It also depends how the roof joists are supported, weather or not they are pushing the taller wall out.

The bit of wood at the lower end looks to me like its adding a load bearing surface, cant see the upper end well enough. If it just goes through the wall all the load is on the inner face, therefore pushing out. If its shaped as in a fkat bit or onto a wall plate the load should be downwards.

Ive just reroofed a similar aged mono pitch roofed barn, structural engineer wanted 6 inch wall plates, 8x2 timbers, stell in the middle too (possibly a bigger span) his main concern was bowing the walls again. To aid the structure the inner floor is used as a diaphram, holding the structre together. Before I got to reroofing, much of the walls were taken down and rebuilt as the walls had bowed.

 

[mtt.tr]

Does this have a structural ridge?,
its a typical off age barn (c**p ) im surprised the roof has no rafter ties. i can only imagine the middle wall is working as a purlin, so is this beam adding support to that wall? this beam then being in a degree of tension.

if the roof load is sitting on this beam there would be a fair amount of load holing it in place in both walls

Im a take no chances, a good structural engineer not a through pictures one, or even a diligent builder onsite is worth every penny in which case you also shift your responsibility to them should you find out you need this beam afterwards

Though i do building work, and mostly happy to take on any job and taken out whole side of houses and structural repairs to timberframe soleplates i don't have the paperwork or want to make a final call on whether something is structural even if i know.

My interest in this case is academic

 

[Barking Mat]

I pulled one out before after checking with 'my mate' I would have left the ends in to attach thing, but they just wiggled out.

I've not even filled the holes (yet) nothing's moved, dug out 50 - 70 cms, of the whole floor, last summer, refilled 30cms of hardcore, sanded, had 25 cms of water in there for six weeks, and it's all still solid...

Now well dry..

Thanks @johnser , .. Going to be entrance hall, and still don't really know what else, pantry?
More back shed of the house, previous owner used to keep his animals and cider barrels in it, earth floor etc.

 

[KemppiFrog]

Blimey, lotta chat about a non-structural beam supporting a storage floor.
Those types of beams are not tie beams, that is not how they did it back then, they relied on the thickness of the walls to stay upright. If that didn't work and they started leaning, then tie bars were fitted, with X's on the outside of the walls to spread the load. They usually heated them up before tightening the nuts, so a bit of preload was applied. There was a fad a while back to fit the X's on otherwise OK walls, as a fashion. Now, I would look closely if they were needed.
In Mat's case, just chop it out. Here, there are several stubs in walls were beams were cut out. Our place is built on a fairly rocky bit of land. So they just scraped down a bit until they found the calcair,than started building. No foundations in the sense most think, just piled stones up. In some areas, the land is less stable and one needs to dig a bit deeper, but not always successful, hence the tie bars.
One oddity that amuses: The stones arrived on a cart, or dug locally, so they used the big ones, as easier to shift low down, so the sizes reduced as the wall moved up. Next load, same. The result is a grading up the wall, from big to little, then big again to little.
Our place wa first started sometime before 1800, when records registered buildings. Certainly not a Chateau, but a rambling old farm house that still needs a LOT of work.
Kitchen calls..
KF

 

[mtt.tr]

It also depends how the roof joists are supported, weather or not they are pushing the taller wall out.

The bit of wood at the lower end looks to me like its adding a load bearing surface, cant see the upper end well enough. If it just goes through the wall all the load is on the inner face, therefore pushing out. If its shaped as in a fkat bit or onto a wall plate the load should be downwards.

Ive just reroofed a similar aged mono pitch roofed barn, structural engineer wanted 6 inch wall plates, 8x2 timbers, stell in the middle too (possibly a bigger span) his main concern was bowing the walls again. To aid the structure the inner floor is used as a diaphram, holding the structre together. Before I got to reroofing, much of the walls were taken down and rebuilt as the walls had bowed.

I should of said not needed in a use as a tie, saying not needed is far too simple.

Also the purlin could cause it to pivot roof pitch is significant aswell

 

[Barking Mat]

Wise words @mtt.tr , my gut instinct is it can / could come out.. But..

I could be wrong, and often am.

 

[eLuSiVeMiTe]

Wise words @mtt.tr , my gut instinct is it can / could come out.. But..

I could be wrong, and often am.

Check and cover your ****
Chances are it will be fine.

On the offchance it isn't I'd want to be able to point fingers at someone other than myself.

 

[Barking Mat]

Yes @KemppiFrog , I agree, but...

I'm a boat mechanic, and advice costs nowt.

Well obviously not a structural engineers...

 

[The_Yellow_Ardvark]

@barking mat

PM in bound.

 

[addjunkie]

Check and cover your ****
Chances are it will be fine.

On the offchance it isn't I'd want to be able to point fingers at someone other than myself.

Unfortunatly even getting an engineers view is no garuntee, still just an opinion with old buildings, yes he will have indemity insurance, but its you who is left with the piles of stone and fire wood roof timbers.

 

[mtt.tr]

Unfortunatly even getting an engineers view is no garuntee, still just an opinion with old buildings, yes he will have indemity insurance, but its you who is left with the piles of stone and fire wood roof timbers.

My architect is great for this as its his bread and butter and qualifications are mostly in old stuff, he is so insightful and sensible with him and the engineers he uses you dont have to question much


Maybe his invoice but he gives me answers i dont have

 

[brightspark]

they wanted a structural engineers report when I bought my house they said it was sinking and needed to do test digs to see the founds and charge big £££ about a grand wifes workmates hubby is a structural engineer and came round and checked for nothing and gave paperwork to building society the roof had spread and settled and that was all I repointed the whole house and sandblasted it 30 years ago and no cracks whatsoever .we had to force him to accept 300 quid as we were so pleased and we saved 700 quid. the house is 130 years old and built on massive sandstone blocks .its going nowhere

 

[mtt.tr]

they wanted a structural engineers report when I bought my house they said it was sinking and needed to do test digs to see the founds and charge big £££ about a grand wifes workmates hubby is a structural engineer and came round and checked for nothing and gave paperwork to building society the roof had spread and settled and that was all I repointed the whole house and sandblasted it 30 years ago and no cracks whatsoever .we had to force him to accept 300 quid as we were so pleased and we saved 700 quid. the house is 130 years old and built on massive sandstone blocks .its going nowhere

Good honest, knowledgeable engineers are becoming rare beasts

 

[brightspark]

Good honest, knowledgeable engineers are becoming rare beasts

yea i worked on a job last year and a fresh from university engineer about 25 years old did the drawings for building regs and was well over the top I would have got someone else in to be honest if it had been my job

 

[mtt.tr]

yea i worked on a job last year and a fresh from university engineer about 25 years old did the drawings for building regs and was well over the top I would have got someone else in to be honest if it had been my job

Going through the same with my brother whos is doing a new build, all involved have never done a new build, very frustrating

 

[brightspark]

this one the guy had a 6 foot opening from kitchen to dining room through the brick wall held up by a thick steel rsj it wanted blocking up. this is a 1930 s house he wanted padsones putting under it . foundations dug and blocks to build it up for god sake all it needed was a partition wall putting in and double plaster boarded . he wasn't happy the beam didn't have any bs numbers on it . the only bs was him all it had on it was dorman long old british steel. that was just one item ott

 

[CornishPete]

If it was a tie beam it would connect to the bottom of the large roof joists to prevent them spreading and thus pushing the walls out. They are needed in a roof truss as the ridge is non load bearing but your ridge is load bearing as the joists are supported at the ridge by a wall. Looks like it's just a floor beam and will have very minimal 'tie' effect.

 

[Barking Mat]

I'll get the chainsaw tomorrow and see if it collapses, I've had a few beers ....