Is it time for a radical change to road works?

[redlig]

I have no issues with cones closed lane etc, as long as they are actually working. Round here they plan repairs, resurface. Don't follow their own road closure procedures. Two weeks later the water boards contractors slow flow come and dig it up!

Don't complain ! Just revel in the knowledge that they have ,at last, discovered the mystery of Perpetual Motion.

 

[Smallfry]

Probably costs far too much to store all the cones somewhere else.

 

[jmp49]

Utility tunnels, or cable ducts are in use in some parts of the world. Bremen in Germany for example runs all its services in these, so they dont need to dig up things to access them. I don't know the specifics but I imagine there is more than one to keep some sort of separation between utilities.
Poundbury in Dorset was also built with ducting like this. Its more expensive initially than direct cable burial, but long term its better in a lot of ways, and the design of the ducts and where to put the enclosures etc are solved issues. Any works also is shorter in duration as they don't need remedial work or the initial digging of holes. If anyone has any photo's or info on the Poundbury ducting, I'd be interested to see how they implemented it, I can find only some notes on the internet that they did this.
It used to be a thing that new roads and construction in Germany mandated use of ducts. But elsewhere long term improvements vs short term money savings don't win votes so it never caught on more widely although I see a lot of new ducting going in to French infra, I'm not involved to know if its mandated or not but I suspect so, as everything has a norm to conform to here and everything is buried in gaines (flexible ducts) and cable tracer layers added under those.
But, critical infrastructure is what central government is about yes? provide the co-ordination and bits of infra that are in the common good, and make it available rather than ad hoc efforts by different companies who don't want to share to keep their commercial advantage. I used to believe this was the utopia that would arrive in my working lifetime, but it seems it never happened.
Retrofitting ducting is a nightmare, but it should have gone into new builds at least & it has in sporadic cases, just not in a co-ordinated way. In telco space, ofcom have been trying to sort out the mess to let others use openreach's ducts with DPA and PIA schemes but its not in BT's interest to play nice so even now its a uphill struggle.

As for working nights on motorways, its always been done. I used to work for a company that did motorway works & recovery at one point and we kept live lane switching and other disruptive changes to around 3am. Even then getting a errant cone out of the live lane at 3am involved running and hoping, and with skin sticking the barriers when trying to vault it in freezing conditions. The reason for the miles of cones when nobody is working is because the authorities need plans of traffic management and for it to get approval months in advance of works commencing, and everything has to be laid out as per that plan so some slippage is built in to accommodate unknowns as changing schedule is a world of pain/burecratic process/costs/penalties. Walking cones in and out is done where possible to keep more live lanes open at rush hours. And I can tell you from personal experience roads look fairly narrow, until you have to sprint across 3 of them as a car or lorry bears down on you at speed. The pay is higher because its danger money, but still, its not high enough to risk dying to save some motorists a few seconds when trying to earn a living. And I've personally seen some incredibly stupid things done by drivers in works. A coned off "unused" section is also handy to get a vehicle quickly out the live lane into before it causes a larger accident and blocks the whole works, minimizing distruption for the other users much more than they're inconvienienced by single lane running or reduce lane counts. There is a whole science behind these things believe it or not.

Here the autoroute workers use a rolling block with a orange van covered in flashing lights and signage for smaller emergencies, and the bank clearing gangs sound like what bob described above and most autoroute services in summer are visited by a display of written off smashed up orange service vans. Its dangerous work because although you might be competent and careful there's the other 50% composed of idiots to deal with, so have some patience and sympathy for the poor sods doing the work.

Minor roads are not as controlled and fall under different authorities, but I never worked on them to know the specifics, only for our TSO to tell me in passing that it was just put some things where the council person says.

 

[ajlelectronics]

Here the autoroute workers use a rolling block with a orange van covered in flashing lights and signage for smaller emergencies,

Very much my (approving) experience of roadworks in France.

 

[Agrismith]

Unfortunately we have let driving standards slip to such a low level that this kind of thing has become near impossible.

 

[Robotstar5]

Temporary lights - I saw this a couple of weeks ago, delivery van didn't stop quick enough for the queue at the red light, oops, someones shopping is going to be late.

 

[Morrisman]

I followed some cars through two sets of temporary light last week, 500 yards apart. One of the cars in front seemed to be in a slow driving competition, when the light changed and the cars in front of him started moving it would take him several seconds to move, then the worlds slowest acceleration... leaving a hundred yards gap, and both times the lights had changed again by the time he dawdled up to them.

I was in the car, yelling at him through my windscreen. He was two cars in front so he probably never heard....

That's why I prefer to ride my bike, I can easily bypass such clowns.

I can see why some delivery guys get frustrated and drive like t***s, it's not a job I'd like, I'd go insane.

 

[MetalMonkey]

I think there is also more than a bit of left hand/right hand going on, especially with all the different contractors involved now.

For example:

We had a water leak out in the road a few years back - water company comes out, after much deliberating eventually decides the road needs digging up as the main has gone.
Week or so later traffic management company comes out, installs traffic lights, disappears.
Few days later, contractor comes out, cuts out the tarmac, digs down to the pipe, disappears.
Week or so later, contractor comes back, fills in hole, makes good, disappears.
Few days later traffic management company comes out, removes lights.

At which point we phone up the water company to point out the leak is still there, as nobody from their team actually came out to fix it at any point (and yes, I did check back through the CCTV footage because I couldn't actually believe it).

Water company comes out, confirms leak is still there.
Couple of weeks later, traffic management company comes out, to re-install the traffic lights.....


We also regularly have roads resurfaced where it is torn up by the tractors – one time they did the entire thing, and built up the verge to try and stop it slipping into the drainage ditch.
Coned off the edge, probably about fifty or sixty cones.

Four years later (after much patching), when they came to redo it again, the cones were still there....
Although most had migrated into the ditch by then and been horribly mangled by the verge cutters, who obviously just mowed over them, despite them being clearly visible.

 

[redlig]

Unfortunately we have let driving standards slip to such a low level that this kind of thing has become near impossible.

How does anyone think all the new tech to "help" the driver is going to address the lack of driving skills?I know that all the new gizmo's are supposedly there to increase safety but i get the feeling they are more to hook a new buyer. Same as the washing machine with 24 programs .

 

[redlig]

I think there is also more than a bit of left hand/right hand going on, especially with all the different contractors involved now.

For example:

We had a water leak out in the road a few years back - water company comes out, after much deliberating eventually decides the road needs digging up as the main has gone.
Week or so later traffic management company comes out, installs traffic lights, disappears.
Few days later, contractor comes out, cuts out the tarmac, digs down to the pipe, disappears.
Week or so later, contractor comes back, fills in hole, makes good, disappears.
Few days later traffic management company comes out, removes lights.

At which point we phone up the water company to point out the leak is still there, as nobody from their team actually came out to fix it at any point (and yes, I did check back through the CCTV footage because I couldn't actually believe it).

Water company comes out, confirms leak is still there.
Couple of weeks later, traffic management company comes out, to re-install the traffic lights.....


We also regularly have roads resurfaced where it is torn up by the tractors – one time they did the entire thing, and built up the verge to try and stop it slipping into the drainage ditch.
Coned off the edge, probably about fifty or sixty cones.

Four years later (after much patching), when they came to redo it again, the cones were still there....
Although most had migrated into the ditch by then and been horribly mangled by the verge cutters, who obviously just mowed over them, despite them being clearly visible.

For some unaccountable reason when ever I see a piece of newly laid tarmac on a much complained of section of road now made perfect with no sign of multiple water co/gas co/electric co etc damage I have the desire to sneak out one night with a can of yellow spray and draw in a fresh set of markers .Just to see the local reaction. One day!!

 

[gaz1]

M6 motorway 0930 just past junction 32 northbound. Warning signs of bridge repair, 50mph limit, speed check area and millions of cones. Funnelled into 2 inside lanes for a couple of miles traffic bunching a bit then get moved over to the outer 2 lanes. Traffic is now around 35mph with a speed check van on hard shoulder. A mile further on the road is clear and not 1 worker in sight. Returning at 1430 southbound the queue on the northbound side went on for miles with crawling and stopped traffic.
The government give lip service to cleaning up cars emissions then allow this to happen without a second thought

i dont mind it but its the users that are idiots that abuse it

cordened off for 2 days in front so users can get used to the reduced speed whilst the road works vehicles are then transported to the site 2 days later

it gets users used to the reduced speed at that section whilst then road works are carried out

what i dont like, is it enforced as a traffic slowing, claming down and then used as speed traps because nothing seems to be getting done as sat there for weeks with nothing being done
there is the issue of vehicles breaking down and there expensive to have 2 one as a spare there normally on a job doing the roads

 

[Erie Fred]

Your not alone, there's a song:

 

[lchris21]

A recent "resurfaced" road near me....fresh spray and chip cheapo job as usual. This was literally hours after the job was finished . I was trying to explain to the highways engineer from the council about freeze/thaw expansion and hydraulic action and asked if anyone was going to visit the site before signing the purchase order for the contractor. This was one of the smaller depressions on the road surface

 

[Trevorleach]

Not to mention the amount of utilities burried under the road quite often wouldn't fit just under the pavement. And if you start stacking utilities you can't access the lower ones. Then with drainage you can't run stuff wherever you like your pretty heavily dictated by the falls required and the direction of flow.

From experience the only thing that makes the work quicker is a single gang carrying out all the work. Currently you get a TM gang set up TM, a dig gang to dig out, a subbase reinstatement gang to reinstate subbase and remove the dig out, a tarmac gang to tarmac and then the TM gang return to collect the traffic management. One gang doing everything is more efficient time wise but very inefficient cost wise. Plus it's difficult enough as it is to find staff let alone telling them to do 5 different jobs.

and also on the odd occasion we do do night work the complaints due to noise are constant. And quite often very aggressive.
and then if the job takes longer than one shift to complete then the road space is closed during the day anyway.

you simply cannot win


So nooone can access their driveways ??
And large delivery vehicles and even emergency services struggle to maneuver.
Water ingress would mean days pumping out some sections just to start work.

Plus to reorganize the utilities would mean qrunning temporary supplies to everyone whilst the old stuff is removed.
And cutting of access to their houses. Cut of access for a day to fix a problem with their own stuff and you get a big enough row.

So just carry on as we are then?
Sometimes ideas just needs to be chucked up in the air and start it from fresh.

 

[8ob]

A recent "resurfaced" road near me....fresh spray and chip cheapo job as usual. This was literally hours after the job was finished . I was trying to explain to the highways engineer from the council about freeze/thaw expansion and hydraulic action and asked if anyone was going to visit the site before signing the purchase order for the contractor. This was one of the smaller depressions on the road surface
View attachment 415951

Tar and chip is a bit of a cheap and cheerful stop gap, only really seals up the surface to stop further damage to the sub base and increase grip on the surface. Dont think its every really laid as a permanent fix.

Bob

 

[lchris21]

Tar and chip is a bit of a cheap and cheerful stop gap, only really seals up the surface to stop further damage to the sub base and increase grip on the surface. Dont think its every really laid as a permanent fix.

Bob

8 years is the stop gap.....I've been reliably informed....? Can be stop gapped up to 45 years before having to be planed off. 45 years of stop gapping

 

[Morrisman]

8 years is the stop gap.....I've been reliably informed....? Can be stop gapped up to 45 years before having to be planed off. 45 years of stop gapping

The annoying thing is they do it to perfectly good solid road surfaces. The A51 and the A518, they did miles of it last year, miles of perfectly good road. While there are absolutely godawful condition roads that desperately need attention being left, for years.

 

[northwest]

I have the desire to sneak out one night with a can of yellow spray and draw in a fresh set of markers .Just to see the local reaction.

Did it in broad daylight. Who is going to question it? Sure enough, dug up and patched. Nuts!!

 

[Agrismith]

So just carry on as we are then?
Sometimes ideas just needs to be chucked up in the air and start it from fresh.

No but you can't start at the end. We need to radically improve drivers, both there ability and attitude. And most likely reduce vehicle numbers. Before things like this can be implemented.
This is my whole point. If people want the disruption of temporary traffic management reduced then the first step is to change there driving attitude. Once the attitude is improved then the TM can improve.
Believe it or not it isn't set up for fun and even sites on 30mph roads are way more dangerous than they should be.
I have been hit twice by car wing mirrors in 30mph zones by people being impatient. Both occasions the site was being packed away and they couldn't be bothered to wait for me to walk past our vehicles get in one and drive away.
And you think the answer is to reduce the level of traffic management and hope for the best.

 

[gaz1]

Simply ban vehicles form the pavement, pretty much how it is now.

it maybe within the highway code but its ignored by car drivers

i wish that was true, user of cars are getting worse for parking on curbs and nothing really gets done about it

both the council and the police should be dishing out fines for parking on curbs but there not and in some areas where roads are too skinny for a parked car and a passing car/fire engine they should allow the parking on curbs as thats down to discreation of enforcement

our road is big enough for 2 cars parked either side of the road and also allows the passing of a wagon and yet users still park on the curb
you cant even get a pram passed them or even a wheelchair for the arrogant car driver

never seen the council or the police ticket the vehicle even though the police pass on the road often so where are the fines then ?

you ring the council up there not interested already tried it there more interested in the local town centers the only exception is blocking a dangerous warning sign then something gets done