Is 5251 sheet much harder to form than 1050a?

[cardiffrob]

Could some kind soul put my mind at ease?
Basically, I have been making parts from 1050a due to the price and easy availability of the sheet but I've been offered some 5251 (Birmabright???) in 8x4 sheets for a similar price. Is it much harder to form with 5251 with hammers and Wheel or should I give it a go? The 1050 is nice but doesn't half dent fast! I've still got to make the door frames, skins and rear panels so now would be a good time to get the advice of the learned folks on here and perhaps trade up to a better material. There doesn't seem to be a cost-effective local source of NS3-equivalent (3000 series?) sheet.
Thanks
Rob (trying to bend 16mm OD 1.5 wall steel tube in a bender designed for copper pipe...so, not having a good day)

 

[rtbcomp]

You're supposed to anneal Birmabright before bending it.

Smear some soap on the area you want to anneal and heat from the opposite side until the soap burns off. It work hardens, so you'll need to keep annealing as you form the metal.

 

[cardiffrob]

Thanks.

I was more concerned with whether it was a sod to form, does it like to crack, does it re-harden quickly, etc....ultimately, would it be too much aggro to use 5251 to make bodywork instead of 1050 or a 3000-series? I googled about but didn't find much in the way of examples of 5251 being used for bodywork so I wondered why that was.
I might drive back there tomorrow to buy the smallest size sheet they have and then have a go with it, if nobody suggests I should avoid it.

 

[R33]

This seems a good way to anneal if you have the gear of course.
Not sure if its of any help mind.

 

[Wendelspanswick]

Nice to see you back Rob, I've been using 5251 on my special, its starts off fairly soft but it does work harden pretty quick. It's alright if you get your forming spot on first time but if you start faffing about you need to anneal it to rework it.
The good point is once it's formed it is pretty resistant to any knocks.

I just need to form the bonnet and decide on the placement of the louvres on mine, and then there is a long list of mechanical stuff to sort before wiring, dash, upholstery etc!

 

[optima21]

a bit off topic, but I made a bender to bend 1.6mm 1.5mm steel tubing from offcuts of wood and a car jack.

worked pretty well, although its was only required for a few bends, as the formers do get damaged through use.

 

[cardiffrob]

Thanks everyone.

Sounds like if Wendel used it succesfully on his then it must be possible for me to have a go. I also had a try on the pipe bender with a piece of 1mm wall 16mm OD tube and the outer was fine, although the inner face crinkled badly. Probably OK for hidden bits but a larger radius is a better idea. Optima has given me a good idea for a solution so I'm off to the metal shop for a rummage through the scrap bin.
I've used a Sharpie pen to get an annealing temp indication on some of the pieces I used before, along with the 'soap' method. Do these still work for 5251 or do different flavours of ali need higher temps in practice?

Fingers crossed!

 

[Wendelspanswick]

I used the soap method but you do need the soap to go black, dark brown is not a high enough temperature as I found out.
Is it square or round tube you are bending, I have successfully bent 1" x 1/8" wall aluminium tube on a Hilmor pipe bender.

 

[Wendelspanswick]

I forgot to say that all my sheet and tube came from ASD Metal Services, good pricing.

 

[PhillipM]

I prefer it for bodywork to be honest, simply because being stronger it holds it's shape better and as you say, it's more resistant to dents, etc.

It's fine if you're working it in one direction, but for intricate or compound stuff you might find you need to anneal halfway through.

 

[cardiffrob]

Well, I picked up some 5251 sheet to have a go at forming and rivetting. The 1050 doesn't like to be rivetted with anything other than the softest grade of rivet (MS20426a, for those who rivet for a living) as it gets deformed by the pressure exerted by the process. Hopefully I can use the hundreds of "-ad" grade rivets I have bagged up in the workshop at last.
Meanwhile I have tried some thinner walled tube (16mm od, 1mm wall) in the £22 Ebay pipe bender. Success, although it always leaves a nasty kink at the short end of the bend. I'm thinking that I'll make 100* bends and trim them down before welding it all together with the best 90* bits. Photos to follow next week.
I also bagged a piece of bar end in mild steel that has a radius of about 3 inches so I might try to make an "Optima21 Special" bender.
By the way, £45 for an 8x4 foot sheet of 1.5mm 5251. Sound alright???

Cheers

Rob

 

[Wendelspanswick]

Well, I picked up some 5251 sheet to have a go at forming and rivetting. The 1050 doesn't like to be rivetted with anything other than the softest grade of rivet (MS20426a, for those who rivet for a living) as it gets deformed by the pressure exerted by the process. Hopefully I can use the hundreds of "-ad" grade rivets I have bagged up in the workshop at last.
Meanwhile I have tried some thinner walled tube (16mm od, 1mm wall) in the £22 Ebay pipe bender. Success, although it always leaves a nasty kink at the short end of the bend. I'm thinking that I'll make 100* bends and trim them down before welding it all together with the best 90* bits. Photos to follow next week.
I also bagged a piece of bar end in mild steel that has a radius of about 3 inches so I might try to make an "Optima21 Special" bender.
By the way, £45 for an 8x4 foot sheet of 1.5mm 5251. Sound alright???

Cheers

Rob

Sounds right, I bought 4 off 8' x 4' x 1.6mm sheets of 5251 for £140 delivered.

 

[cardiffrob]

Well, the tube bending exercise turned out nicely. After several nasty results I welded a large diameter piece of steel pipe to a flat plate and added a wedge to hold one end of the 16mm tube tight to the outside wall of the pipe. Bending it reeeeeeeally slowly seemed to get a nice gentle bend without ANY sign of crimping.

More pics to follow once the camera batteries recharge.

Thanks guys!

 

[clarkey31]

Looks really good rob your doing a top job there.

 

[cardiffrob]

Thanks, Gavin.

Hey, that reminds me! When can I bring the Morris Tourer shell over to you for the respray?

 

[clarkey31]

Thanks, Gavin.

Hey, that reminds me! When can I bring the Morris Tourer shell over to you for the respray?

ummm should be able to get it in the shop in november it is on my board in work to stop me forgetting..
Gavin

 

[cardiffrob]

Photo of bendy pipe thingy, Mk2.



Thanks, Gavin!


Tha

 

[cardiffrob]

First panel knocked up this morning in 1050 to see how it worked out. What is generally though to be the best method of keeping the top/front corner flat when curling and shrinking that corner? It seems to want to bow outwards as it gets whacked into submission. I've not got to chapter 2 in "Tin-whacking for Dummies' yet. Mostly the sheet goes through 180+ degrees from the outside and over the tube frame but I have less on the corners to help with shrinking it enough.

 

[Wendelspanswick]

I had a similar problem on the cockpit of mine only I was using 1" tube and a shallower radius.
I have had limited success with TIG shrinking, using the torch to apply localised heat and then cooling with compressed air, you have to be careful not to melt the sheet though.
Looking good!

 

[cardiffrob]

Wendel. See this one? http://www.allmetalshaping.com/showthread.php?t=13389