How much are garages charging?

[m_c]

I'd guess that the timing belt pulleys were 'dabbed' rather than the correct locking tools used. Very few bother locking the HP fuel pump, even less bother checking it after the initial two rotations of the crank.
Some places don't even bother with replacing the idler pulleys or tensioner and just do a 'slide-off, slide on' with the belts.

I never done a 4 pot, but the 5 pot Pre-PD engines had adjustment on the pump belt idler/tensioner.
It's been quite some time since I done one, so the specifics are a bit vague, but IIRC the belt was done using marks on the cam/pump/belt, then you had to do the final adjustment using a computer to monitor pump timing as you adjusted the idler/tensioner to get the pump timing within spec.

 

[AVI_8]

I think independent garages charge a fair price, not that I use them as I do my own maintenance, but I’ve a mate who owns his own garage business. And I know the costs involved.

Guys like @premmington and @Ubique are a dying breed with regards to knowledge, they learned their knowledge in the era whereby they were trained in the art of mechanics.

When I left school at 15 my first job was a YTS mechanic with the Scottish Ambulance Service at 16 years old back in 1986, weekly pay £37.40 , there was no option to stay on after the year was up, if there was I would have. But I learned so much in that year that it has enabled me to do my own car diy, being a petrolhead and car enthusiast was the catalyst for that.

The only time in my life I put a car into a garage was last year, and only because I broke a bone in my foot, there was a no boost issue, and I took a screen shot of the fault codes and showed them to the garage saying I thought the problem was with the boost control solenoids, this was a BMW independent specialist, they sent it back to me the following day saying it was fixed, well it wasn’t and immediately went into limp home on the way back after a £370 bill.

I parked it up and bought a smoke tester and straight away with that found a cracked solenoid in the boost control side of a twin scroll turbo system which is not particularly easy to access.

And there lies an issue, in that with a garage services business, old school guys who have spent their life with decades of knowledge of experience and common sense intuition are now a dying breed, they are being replaced with younger generation of people who are totally reliant on what a diagnostics device is telling them without the knowledge of how a system works and how to read between the lines of what the diagnostics is telling them.

With modern electric cars, this problem is going to be a significant issue as without a diagnostics machine interrogating issues would be difficult, but with diagnostics you need to be able to read between the lines, and that’s clearly becoming an issue with modern “techs”

 

[premmington]

I think independent garages charge a fair price, not that I use them as I do my own maintenance, but I’ve a mate who owns his own garage business. And I know the costs involved.

Guys like @premmington and @Ubique are a dying breed with regards to knowledge, they learned their knowledge in the era whereby they were trained in the art of mechanics.

When I left school at 15 my first job was a YTS mechanic with the Scottish Ambulance Service at 16 years old back in 1986, weekly pay £37.40 , there was no option to stay on after the year was up, if there was I would have. But I learned so much in that year that it has enabled me to do my own car diy, being a petrolhead and car enthusiast was the catalyst for that.

The only time in my life I put a car into a garage was last year, and only because I broke a bone in my foot, there was a no boost issue, and I took a screen shot of the fault codes and showed them to the garage saying I thought the problem was with the boost control solenoids, this was a BMW independent specialist, they sent it back to me the following day saying it was fixed, well it wasn’t and immediately went into limp home on the way back after a £370 bill.

I parked it up and bought a smoke tester and straight away with that found a cracked solenoid in the boost control side of a twin scroll turbo system which is not particularly easy to access.

And there lies an issue, in that with a garage services business, old school guys who have spent their life with decades of knowledge of experience and common sense intuition are now a dying breed, they are being replaced with younger generation of people who are totally reliant on what a diagnostics device is telling them without the knowledge of how a system works and how to read between the lines of what the diagnostics is telling them.

With modern electric cars, this problem is going to be a significant issue as without a diagnostics machine interrogating issues would be difficult, but with diagnostics you need to be able to read between the lines, and that’s clearly becoming an issue with modern “techs”

@AVI_8 - Me and you about the same age. I started work in 1982... Aged 15...

It is a young mans world (as it should be)...

 

[AVI_8]

@AVI_8 - Me and you about the same age. I started work in 1982... Aged 15...

It is a young mans world (as it should be)...

Yes but what I was trying to say was that the young men are not going to have the type of self diagnosis training that you had, ie knowing systems and how to self diagnose them either before or after a computer says “this part is faulty and needs replaced”
Even though the part might be perfectly ok, just compromised by a leaky vacuum line … just to give an example.

Maybe I’m doing modern mechanics a dis-service but you hear of this type of thing happening all the time now, as I found out to my £370 cost just recently.

 

[Moose McAlpine]

I never done a 4 pot, but the 5 pot Pre-PD engines had adjustment on the pump belt idler/tensioner.
It's been quite some time since I done one, so the specifics are a bit vague, but IIRC the belt was done using marks on the cam/pump/belt, then you had to do the final adjustment using a computer to monitor pump timing as you adjusted the idler/tensioner to get the pump timing within spec.

Oh the fun..

 

[charlysays]

I never done a 4 pot, but the 5 pot Pre-PD engines had adjustment on the pump belt idler/tensioner.
It's been quite some time since I done one, so the specifics are a bit vague, but IIRC the belt was done using marks on the cam/pump/belt, then you had to do the final adjustment using a computer to monitor pump timing as you adjusted the idler/tensioner to get the pump timing within spec.

Correct. Checking and adjusting injection timing after TB replacement is in all the workshop manuals for the ALH engine. Likely the same as 5 pot ones you did as they all used a Bosch VE family pump.

 

[Moose McAlpine]

Correct. Checking and adjusting injection timing after TB replacement is in all the workshop manuals for the ALH engine. Likely the same as 5 pot ones you did as they all used a Bosch VE family pump.

The 5-cylinder engines are totally different. The injector pump's driven off a second belt off the back of the camshaft.

 

[Ubique]

I never done a 4 pot, but the 5 pot Pre-PD engines had adjustment on the pump belt idler/tensioner.
It's been quite some time since I done one, so the specifics are a bit vague, but IIRC the belt was done using marks on the cam/pump/belt, then you had to do the final adjustment using a computer to monitor pump timing as you adjusted the idler/tensioner to get the pump timing within spec.

I too have a vague memory - certainly not anything I've done in the last fifteen years or so, I think I'd rather replace a 3.0 TDV6 pump belt, or maybe even a set of chains on a 2.0 Ingenium....

 

[charlysays]

The 5-cylinder engines are totally different. The injector pump's driven off a second belt off the back of the camshaft.

Ok, what I meant was they use the same family of injector pumps and that, according to the previous poster, they also need the timing fine tuning after TB replacement. Thanks for the info re it having a separate belt.

On the ALH engine which I was discussing and which it was suggested that the need for adjusting the injection timing after TB replacement must mean that the mechanic did half a job, all the manuals state you must check injection timing on a computer after TB change and adjust via the slots in the pulley if needed.

I'm inclined to therefore believe that it's necessary rather than the mechanic being incompetent.

 

[charlysays]

I'd guess that the timing belt pulleys were 'dabbed' rather than the correct locking tools used. Very few bother locking the HP fuel pump, even less bother checking it after the initial two rotations of the crank.
Some places don't even bother with replacing the idler pulleys or tensioner and just do a 'slide-off, slide on' with the belts.

Ok, I supplied him with locking tools which he successfully refitted after 5 rotations. All the manuals for this pre PD engine (no separate HP pump) state injection timing must be checked and adjusted if necessary after each TB replacement. Therefore it needing adjustment could be normal procedure rather than a poor job?

 

[Ubique]

Yes but what I was trying to say was that the young men are not going to have the type of self diagnosis training that you had, ie knowing systems and how to self diagnose them either before or after a computer says “this part is faulty and needs replaced”
Even though the part might be perfectly ok, just compromised by a leaky vacuum line … just to give an example.

Maybe I’m doing modern mechanics a dis-service but you hear of this type of thing happening all the time now, as I found out to my £370 cost just recently.

I've recently moved to an indie, there are a couple of trained techs, but only up to service & maintenance, the guy that was covering the diagnostics until I got there is experienced, but not trained - so consequently doesn't have the underlying knowledge of 'how things work', which is a big part of diagnosing a first-time fix. One of the things I was taught early-on was to look at actual values (this was pre-electronics) and compare to what they should be - both with the engine off and on, this has become more and more valuable as the number of sensors increased, being collated in one or two electronic modules actually makes things easier as you can compare, say, pressure values, side-by-side and easily spot an errant one.

An example from today.... 4.4 TDV8, DPF warning on dash, won't regen no matter how the tech drove it, soot levels increasing.
Checked differential pressure sensor values, all normal, checked against applied pressure - readings correlate. So the DPF fill level is correct. Checked EGT values - all bank 1 sensor values OK, the exhaust on bank 2 is stone cold and the EGT sensor responds when the exhaust is heated. Turns out the 2nd turbo bushing has collapsed and all the exhaust gases are exiting via bank 1, the regen is inhibited because the bank 2 temperature is below the threshold for the fuelling to be adjusted and the EGR's to be deactivated, because the EGT is in a valid range, no DTC is set.

This came from another garage, who in turn were recommended by another garage that just reset the DPF values to 'new DPF fitted' and hoped it'd clear with a drive.

 

[Ubique]

Ok, I supplied him with locking tools which he successfully refitted after 5 rotations. All the manuals for this pre PD engine (no separate HP pump) state injection timing must be checked and adjusted if necessary after each TB replacement. Therefore it needing adjustment could be normal procedure rather than a poor job?

Like I said, a guess - It's a long time since I did a belt on your engine, probably only ever did a single figure number of them, I've done many, many, of the later ones which is probably where the 'off the cuff' guess was generated.

 

[AVI_8]

I've recently moved to an indie, there are a couple of trained techs, but only up to service & maintenance, the guy that was covering the diagnostics until I got there is experienced, but not trained - so consequently doesn't have the underlying knowledge of 'how things work', which is a big part of diagnosing a first-time fix. One of the things I was taught early-on was to look at actual values (this was pre-electronics) and compare to what they should be - both with the engine off and on, this has become more and more valuable as the number of sensors increased, being collated in one or two electronic modules actually makes things easier as you can compare, say, pressure values, side-by-side and easily spot an errant one.

An example from today.... 4.4 TDV8, DPF warning on dash, won't regen no matter how the tech drove it, soot levels increasing.
Checked differential pressure sensor values, all normal, checked against applied pressure - readings correlate. So the DPF fill level is correct. Checked EGT values - all bank 1 sensor values OK, the exhaust on bank 2 is stone cold and the EGT sensor responds when the exhaust is heated. Turns out the 2nd turbo bushing has collapsed and all the exhaust gases are exiting via bank 1, the regen is inhibited because the bank 2 temperature is below the threshold for the fuelling to be adjusted and the EGR's to be deactivated, because the EGT is in a valid range, no DTC is set.

This came from another garage, who in turn were recommended by another garage that just reset the DPF values to 'new DPF fitted' and hoped it'd clear with a drive.

That was the point I was trying to make, there’s no substitute to good old experience.

 

[Ubique]

That was the point I was trying to make, there’s no substitute to good old experience.

I think it's also because it takes commitment and long-term 'investment', both from individuals and employers. I just don't see the service tech's and apprentices having the interest, even down to the tools they buy, they're 'just good enough', the comments are essentially 'I don't want to spend a lot because I might not need them in a few years time'.
I've had quite a few disparate jobs, for a couple of reasons, I ended up back in the trade I first did my apprenticeship in after double-digit years out of it, I had a bit of catching up to do, but essentially the basics were no different - and, if I'm honest, I enjoy it (mostly!) A lot of the skills learnt can be applied across different jobs - and life in general, the key one is keeping it linear, jumping around achieves nothing.
And supposedly, anything that keeps your mind working hard is good for you!

 

[bricol]

Some of you sound like some of the people who were interviewing me back in 93 ish for engineering jobs.

Bemoaning that at 22/23, straight out of uni I had no experience . . .


Moaning the old guys with decades of experience are being replaced with younger guys with no experience.
Ever thought how the old guys with got the decades of experience?

By getting old! They too were young once, with no experience. They gained it with years on the job. The ones that stuck it - either because they liked it, or because nothing else was available. So give the younger guys some flippin' time. They cannot simply be downloaded with experience, it has to be earnt over time. Even if you stuck each young guy with an old guy, he's not going to download all the knowledge in the older head.

Although from my experience, in engineering, not just motor trade, some of that knowledge in older heads is complete rubbish - it's just been luck it's got them out of the do-doo a few times.

And equally, unless those old guys have been on the same training courses the new guys have, they won't have much of a clue on new stuff.

Funnily enough, after 30 years of being paid to do engineering, I've picked up quite a lot of additional knowledge and experience, some of which is undoubtly complete rubbish that's got me out of the do-doo by luck, in additon to my certificates.

 

[Jack_K]

My mother's job title was a Floor Technician.
She was employed by the education board to clean the local high school!


I was employed as a Maintenance Technician. I worked in a food factory and if a machine broke I fixed it!

Apparently I'm a warehouse technician. No I don't fix warehouses, I fix computers. It's not what the title of what I applied for said but that's what I'm employed as.

 

[AVI_8]

Some of you sound like some of the people who were interviewing me back in 93 ish for engineering jobs.

Bemoaning that at 22/23, straight out of uni I had no experience . . .


Moaning the old guys with decades of experience are being replaced with younger guys with no experience.
Ever thought how the old guys with got the decades of experience?

By getting old! They too were young once, with no experience. They gained it with years on the job. The ones that stuck it - either because they liked it, or because nothing else was available. So give the younger guys some flippin' time. They cannot simply be downloaded with experience, it has to be earnt over time. Even if you stuck each young guy with an old guy, he's not going to download all the knowledge in the older head.

Although from my experience, in engineering, not just motor trade, some of that knowledge in older heads is complete rubbish - it's just been luck it's got them out of the do-doo a few times.

And equally, unless those old guys have been on the same training courses the new guys have, they won't have much of a clue on new stuff.

Funnily enough, after 30 years of being paid to do engineering, I've picked up quite a lot of additional knowledge and experience, some of which is undoubtly complete rubbish that's got me out of the do-doo by luck, in additon to my certificates.

Just by being devils advocate, and no idea of your engineering expertise, what I was referring to was in particular vehicle mechanics, and there’s no doubt that in vehicle mechanics some modern “techs” don’t have the basic understanding of basic diagnostics, I don’t know if you frequent car forums as I do, but some of the absolute …. Without swearing lack of understanding is absolutely evident.

So in your experience as an engineer you’ve seen some guys who are rubbish in your opinion, I guess that could apply to any trade



.

 

[m_c]

I too have a vague memory - certainly not anything I've done in the last fifteen years or so, I think I'd rather replace a 3.0 TDV6 pump belt, or maybe even a set of chains on a 2.0 Ingenium....

I don't remember them being too bad a job, provided you had the tool for holding the crank pulley for torquing the crank bolt, and making sure you fitted a new diamond crush washer.

My biggest memory of them was my foreman at the time done one (was rare he was out the office!), and he couldn't get the engine to turn with the new belt on, so he got me across to check he was using the right mark on the flywheel (just remember there was a hole in top of the bell housing!). As he's under the wheel arch turning the crank, I'm aware of something coming in to view at the timing belt end.
He'd used a pair of molegrips on the cam pulley to rock the cam to get the locking plate in, and they'd been hitting of the engine mount

 

[m_c]

I've recently moved to an indie, there are a couple of trained techs, but only up to service & maintenance, the guy that was covering the diagnostics until I got there is experienced, but not trained - so consequently doesn't have the underlying knowledge of 'how things work', which is a big part of diagnosing a first-time fix. One of the things I was taught early-on was to look at actual values (this was pre-electronics) and compare to what they should be - both with the engine off and on, this has become more and more valuable as the number of sensors increased, being collated in one or two electronic modules actually makes things easier as you can compare, say, pressure values, side-by-side and easily spot an errant one.

An example from today.... 4.4 TDV8, DPF warning on dash, won't regen no matter how the tech drove it, soot levels increasing.
Checked differential pressure sensor values, all normal, checked against applied pressure - readings correlate. So the DPF fill level is correct. Checked EGT values - all bank 1 sensor values OK, the exhaust on bank 2 is stone cold and the EGT sensor responds when the exhaust is heated. Turns out the 2nd turbo bushing has collapsed and all the exhaust gases are exiting via bank 1, the regen is inhibited because the bank 2 temperature is below the threshold for the fuelling to be adjusted and the EGR's to be deactivated, because the EGT is in a valid range, no DTC is set.

This came from another garage, who in turn were recommended by another garage that just reset the DPF values to 'new DPF fitted' and hoped it'd clear with a drive.

That's the key thing that many techs don't get.

Something that always sticks in my mind, is an article in one of the trade mags years ago by their diagnostic "specialist", and the key thing that they stressed was diagnostic kit is just another tool in your toolbox.
It doesn't give you the answers, it simply tells you where the ECU has detected something is wrong. It's up to the tech to actually interpret that information, and diagnose the problem.

As I'm sure you have, I've spent many hours reading tech info to actually understand how something works.
Even for simpler stuff, like understanding how the old Transit 2006 fuel filter head worked, which was a revelation in getting them to bleed reliably.

 

[Ubique]

That's the key thing that many techs don't get.

Something that always sticks in my mind, is an article in one of the trade mags years ago by their diagnostic "specialist", and the key thing that they stressed was diagnostic kit is just another tool in your toolbox.
It doesn't give you the answers, it simply tells you where the ECU has detected something is wrong. It's up to the tech to actually interpret that information, and diagnose the problem.

As I'm sure you have, I've spent many hours reading tech info to actually understand how something works.
Even for simpler stuff, like understanding how the old Transit 2006 fuel filter head worked, which was a revelation in getting them to bleed reliably.

Another thing that's drummed in on even the most basic 'electronic engine controls' training, is that most diagnostic engine checks are not completed until after the engine is detected as running, it's amazing how many tech's. forget this - which again, comes back to checking the basics of suck, squeeze, bang, blow.