How much are garages charging?

[Morris]

"DVLA will send you a letter to confirm that the original VIN shown on the vehicle record can be stamped onto the replacement chassis, monocoque bodyshell or frame.

A new V5C will be sent after you confirm that the vehicle has been restamped.

The vehicle will usually keep the original VIN. DVLA will tell you if there’s a reason it cannot."

Full page here. Quite clearly allows new shells to keep the chassis or VIN number.

Vehicle registration

How to register your vehicle and the cost: including new registrations, kit-built vehicles, repairs and restorations, and structural modifications.

www.gov.uk

 

[Smallfry]

They had a chassis number and a body number.
Source: MiniMail https://share.google/6uHQMYlPerW7j7OUl
Re shelling is legal but depending on the new parts used, technically it shouldn't retain the same identity, if you put a new shell on 2 new subframes and fitted a new engine it's hardly the same car

These sort of arguments keep classic car forum members awake all night.

While you could argue that its not the same car, and really it isn't, not if all the bodyshell has been changed, like for like replacements are acceptable.

Back in the day when we had cars delivered straight from the factory, OR were a couple of months old and written off, we would order a new bodyshell, stamp the VIN on it, paint it, and either sell as new, or return to the customer as an insurance repair. No different really.

 

[cheb]

They had a chassis number and a body number.
Source: MiniMail https://share.google/6uHQMYlPerW7j7OUl
Re shelling is legal but depending on the new parts used, technically it shouldn't retain the same identity, if you put a new shell on 2 new subframes and fitted a new engine it's hardly the same car

These sort of arguments keep classic car forum members awake all night.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus. Keeping philosophers awake since the 17th century

 

[Ubique]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus. Keeping philosophers awake since the 17th century

Thankfully they pre-dated Trigger's broom...

 

[Bobupndown]

Thankfully they pre-dated Trigger's broom...

A classic!

 

[Turbo]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus. Keeping philosophers awake since the 17th century

There are bands out there with none of the original members in it but still use the same name.
Foreigner, Heart, Lynard Skynard, Thin Lizzy, etc.

 

[Richiew]

The Drifters.

 

[Richiew]

Canned Heat is a good one too.

 

[Morris]

The Drifters.

The group or the thread.

 

[Erie Fred]

There are bands out there with none of the original members in it but still use the same name.
Foreigner, Heart, Lynard Skynard, Thin Lizzy, etc.

The Little River Band:

 

[cheb]

I read about an early Bugatti race car. It ended up being three original cars, the chassis was one, bodywork on the second and the engine in a third.

 

[Cato]

Rather than start a new thread, this email seems to fit well with this one as it's very much what @Ubique etc were talking about with dependence on diagnostics. The email is self explanatory, and I feel a bit sorry for the customer, but it's not one I want to get involved with TBH.

I did reply with a few pointers on temp sensors, the way they fail, and how such failures don't show up with diagnostic units/code readers. I didn't get into the part about compression and valve clearances being tight when cold.

Hi there,

I’m looking to book my 2017 Ducati SuperSport S in with a Ducati specialist for a valve clearance check/adjustment (Desmo). Could you let me know if this is something you can do, along with your availability and an estimated cost?

Background / symptoms:
Persistent cold-start issue: it cranks normally but will only start with full throttle and needs throttle to stay running for the first minute or so.

Once warm, it runs perfectly.

Diagnostics/checks already completed at (Probably shouldn't leave the workshop name in ) (they can't do the valve clearance):

• New battery fitted
• Wiring and earths checked and confirmed good
• Fuel checked (no signs of water/contamination)
• Fuel pump tested and working
• Starter motor tested directly and OK
• No fault codes present on scan
• Compression reading reported around ~80 (suggesting low compression when cold), with the current suspicion being tight valve clearances

If helpful, I can share any notes/videos of the cold start behaviour.

Thanks,

 

[Ubique]

I love this:-

Wiring and earths checked and confirmed good

Ignoring the fact they're 'ground' not 'earth' on a vehicle, that is a lot of work, even on (I presume) a simpler engine harness compared to a four cylinder petrol engined car.
Clearly, no-one has done the 'stand back and think for a minute or two', there's no indication of any live values checked (which is probably where you're coming from with temperature sensor values).
I've had jobs before where the car has had 'all wiring checked and found good, so it can't be an electrical fault', asked how long that took, 'oh, about an hour' (!) it usually turns out to be an errant sensor or corroded fuse etc.

It reminds me of the VWG TDi harness issue - well known now, where the engine harness rubs on the charge air cooler and momentarily shorts to ground one or more of three wires, before it was a problem of some scale, the parts related to the DTC's set were being changed, and would 'cure' the issue for days or weeks by virtue of the harness being moved during the repair. This would settle back into it's natural position over time and the problem occur again.

The biggest problem was techs - dealer techs, not following the diagnostic plan set out on ODIS - 'Using the current flow diagrams, carry out wiring checks and visually check the harness for damage'. Because they knew better, it's never a harness problem (actually, I find VWG and Audi in particular have more wiring harness issues than any other manufacturer I've worked for), as an aside, VWG standards specify that wiring harness repairs must use yellow wire and a yellow tape marker must be put on the harness at the location of the repair.

 

[Cato]

I love this:-

Ignoring the fact they're 'ground' not 'earth' on a vehicle, that is a lot of work, even on (I presume) a simpler engine harness compared to a four cylinder petrol engined car.
Clearly, no-one has done the 'stand back and think for a minute or two', there's no indication of any live values checked (which is probably where you're coming from with temperature sensor values).
I've had jobs before where the car has had 'all wiring checked and found good, so it can't be an electrical fault', asked how long that took, 'oh, about an hour' (!) it usually turns out to be an errant sensor or corroded fuse etc.

It reminds me of the VWG TDi harness issue - well known now, where the engine harness rubs on the charge air cooler and momentarily shorts to ground one or more of three wires, before it was a problem of some scale, the parts related to the DTC's set were being changed, and would 'cure' the issue for days or weeks by virtue of the harness being moved during the repair. This would settle back into it's natural position over time and the problem occur again.

The biggest problem was techs - dealer techs, not following the diagnostic plan set out on ODIS - 'Using the current flow diagrams, carry out wiring checks and visually check the harness for damage'. Because they knew better, it's never a harness problem (actually, I find VWG and Audi in particular have more wiring harness issues than any other manufacturer I've worked for), as an aside, VWG standards specify that wiring harness repairs must use yellow wire and a yellow tape marker must be put on the harness at the location of the repair.

I suspect that step one was to plug in the code reader/diagnostic unit and when that didn't show anything the guessing and parts darts started.

From past experience what they mean by "earth's checked" is a physical/visual inspection of the battery to engine & frame. I can almost guarantee there won't have been a resistance check or voltage drop along/across anything.

Poor cold starting, but starts and runs fine when up to temp and no difficulty cranking hot or cold. So why on earth they fitted a battery, checked the starter, and the fuel is beyond me? Compression test but no leak down, then guess at valve clearances because it's a Desmo.

As you say, first principles. What changes between when it won't start and when it will? What signal gives that info to the ECU? How does that sensor work and what condition does it fail in? It really is (or was) second year apprentice stuff and would likely be in a written or practical test at that stage.

A bazillion years ago I used to deliver dealer training for JLR, (back in the TestBook days ) and the hardest thing to move techs away from was the "Oh that's always the [insert name of part] which they'd swap. If it didn't cure it the head scratching started.

 

[Ubique]

We may have met - I was a regional tech (iFSE) for them when I came back to UK in late '06 and spent many weeks at Gaydon...


This is the sort of stuff I saw on a regular basis in Africa, good to see some things don't change....

https://twitter.com/x/status/2021264531863797831

 

[Cato]

We may have met - I was a regional tech (iFSE) for them when I came back to UK in late '06 and spent many weeks at Gaydon...


This is the sort of stuff I saw on a regular basis in Africa, good to see some things don't change....

https://twitter.com/x/status/2021264531863797831

I left Gaydon at the turn of the century to go to Browns Lane, and then I went to Semcon in Kineton on contract when they took over all the Tech and Owner's manuals. I imagine a few I worked with would have still been there then though.

The scary part of that (like most places I was at before then) is that the Academy (now Aston Martin), Browns Lane (now Amazon warehouse) and Semcon Kineton no longer exist.

 

[Ubique]

As I was self-employed (as were all FSE's under Ford's tenure), I spent a lot of 'spare time' with some of the very clever guys in the calibrations dept., I learnt a lot about the 'hidden' side of development and why the current 'trend' for mapping stuff out is a very, very bad idea - not only for compliance but from the point of undoing many of the parallel sensor/actuator relationships and how the contingency values were developed. I still keep in touch with one of the guys that now lives on a Scottish island - part-time shopkeeper, part-time landy mechanic, full-time geek.

My eldest lad did his apprenticeship at a LR dealer and spent a week every month at the Academy, sometimes we'd both be there at the same time but in different rooms, it was very odd to meet up at lunch and be introduced to his classmates who assumed I was an apprentice too!

 

[addjunkie]

This is the sort of stuff I saw on a regular basis in Africa, good to see some things don't change....

https://twitter.com/x/status/2021264531863797831

Its not just Africa. Far east and South America similar.
Many of our MOT failures travel south to the sun and are happily running about down there. I saw a video taken in Dakar of similar vehicle safety stuff, filmed by a Pilipino Controls Engineer who used to work for me in Angola.

 

[Ubique]

As well as Africa, I spent a bit of time in various 'stan's', African 'standards' are a distant aspiration....

edit: Actually, they don't aspire to anything at all, they're quite content as they are.

 

[addjunkie]

As well as Africa, I spent a bit of time in various 'stan's', African 'standards' are a distant aspiration....

I can imagine.