Hi......Self Employment?

[angellonewolf]

im prob bing sceptical but if you working on price /jobs/time scale

it would be very easy to eg say you will get xxx for this job have it done in a day you do it
next week same job same xxx but he wants it done asap so 8 hours insted of 10
next week xxx -10 percent he has seen you can do the job in 8 hours and he just got his costs down

over 6 months your doing the same job working you a** of for 30 percent less and all done in 7 hours

and as your self enployed if the bloke said the next week got a job for you
xxx -30 percent in 7 hours your fedup with the price your getting and the time expected to do it in you say NO
boss said got no other work at the moment take it or leave it do it or walk and you have no other option what you going to say

this will prob not happen but it could

 

[wookie]

I had an ex-boss try to convince me to go self-employed but continue working for him full time, Ignoring all the legalities of being "Self-employed but only having one customer", I did the sums and he wouldn’t offer anywhere near enough to make it worth my while and I'd be in a very similar setup to the one you propose (i.e. him supplying tools, clothes etc etc)

Your boss is only trying to make his life easier and cheaper, I don't care how great/indispensable you think you are he is only trying to save himself some money and that means you will be worse off.

Think about it for a minute, is he really such a great guy that he wants to pay you more ??? I'm sorry but I don't believe that for a second.

I'm a fair bit older than you, I've had a couple of "great offers" of bosses over the years and turned them all down as in each case I'd be working harder for the same money or doing the same hours but ending up with less in my pocket in the end.

 

[JSR]

Hang on that don't make sense. Above you said you get 12ph. So are you doing 60 hour weeks? Overtime at 1.5x ?
Sorry but I wouldn't be doing no sixth hour weeks for £12, been there done that.

I'm on hourly rate when I'm not doing piecework

 

[JSR]

im prob bing sceptical but if you working on price /jobs/time scale

it would be very easy to eg say you will get xxx for this job have it done in a day you do it
next week same job same xxx but he wants it done asap so 8 hours insted of 10
next week xxx -10 percent he has seen you can do the job in 8 hours and he just got his costs down

over 6 months your doing the same job working you a** of for 30 percent less and all done in 7 hours

and as your self enployed if the bloke said the next week got a job for you
xxx -30 percent in 7 hours your fedup with the price your getting and the time expected to do it in you say NO
boss said got no other work at the moment take it or leave it do it or walk and you have no other option what you going to say

this will prob not happen but it could

That is my worry having no work one week. The job will always be the same price, it would also benefit me to get the job done quicker.

 

[JSR]

I had an ex-boss try to convince me to go self-employed but continue working for him full time, Ignoring all the legalities of being "Self-employed but only having one customer", I did the sums and he wouldn’t offer anywhere near enough to make it worth my while and I'd be in a very similar setup to the one you propose (i.e. him supplying tools, clothes etc etc)

Your boss is only trying to make his life easier and cheaper, I don't care how great/indispensable you think you are he is only trying to save himself some money and that means you will be worse off.

Think about it for a minute, is he really such a great guy that he wants to pay you more ??? I'm sorry but I don't believe that for a second.

I'm a fair bit older than you, I've had a couple of "great offers" of bosses over the years and turned them all down as in each case I'd be working harder for the same money or doing the same hours but ending up with less in my pocket in the end.

I'm under no illusions that he is doing this to benefit me. 100% he is doing it as it benefits him. I'm just trying to find out wether it would benefit me to actually give it a go.

 

[wookie]

That is my worry having no work one week. The job will always be the same price, it would also benefit me to get the job done quicker.

Why ???

You've previously said you already get paid a price for doing piece work at the moment so the faster you work the more you earn...

 

[JSR]

Why ???

You've previously said you get paid a price for doing piece work at the moment so the faster you work the more you earn...

Yes, is that not beneficial to me?

 

[pedrobedro]

As someone else has already said you will not be classed as self employed in the eyes of HMRC if you are still working for the same employer, someone will be asking questions about your employment status before long and when it gets awkward for your employer will be backing you up or looking after his own interests?

 

[Mee]

Most points have been covered, and as much as it pains me to say it PDG hit the nail on the head, but consider one thing, you are 31 years old and at 31 I was working more hours than you, and I suspect many more posters on here were, the question is how long can you go on doing this for? could you still do it when you get to my age? could you even do it in 10 years time? and of course I would ask why your boss is looking to lower his overheads if he has work coming out of his ears currently.

I would also ask about the stability of the company, they have foreign competition and the world is changing, it is often cheaper to sub work out abroad these days.

 

[dobbslc]

I am doing work at a price, say for instance £100 a piece, I do 8-10 a week. If there is no price work available I am paid £12 p/h to do the odd jobs.

I bet if you go self employed the price work will suddenly dry up!
If you're earning that much most weeks I'd stay put, it sounds like a good wage, just say you can't be self-employed as you need continuity of employment for a mortgage or loan etc if you feel awkward about saying no. Our electrical firm did "price work" but gave such a low amount of hours it was not worth it. The lads were getting mugged right off and soon realized it was better just plodding on on normal day rate.

 

[Rocketman]

I can tell you exactly why they are trying to do this. With overheads it probably costs the company £30 an hour to employ a guy on £12. They are also worried about being tied to having workers depending on work load. TBH £16-£17 for a long term contractor doing the same work as the guys in the shop for £12 is about the right ballpark - if they supply all consumables/equipment to use. I would stipulate that they need to write up an agreement to verify you are covered on their insurance both for you and any work you do.

But something doesn't sound right for sure. Doing this the employer sounds like they don't care for you much sorry to say. The other thing is they have got out of any redundancy liability. It smells of dead things.

 

[Nomolos]

I am not one to overly post, but felt the need to put my two pennies in.

I think the question you want to be asking yourself is why?

Why does your boss want to pay you more by allowing you to be self-employed?

Why is your boss happy to increase his overheads by paying you more than he does as an employee?

If he is a very nice person and feels you need better rewards for your long hours of work why does he not increase your hourly rate?

As mentioned a few times above, something is not right with the offer and until you can work out what the real reason is for the move stay as you are.

 

[Shox Dr]

I would keep it as, sounds like you're on a good screw now, don't mess with it.

Soon as you go SE he'll be pinning you down on the rates.


There's nothing stopping you going SE, while working for him (subject to clauses in your contract with him) build up sone work and then take up the offer, that way he hasn't got you by the balls.

 

[JSR]

I can tell you exactly why they are trying to do this. With overheads it probably costs the company £30 an hour to employ a guy on £12. They are also worried about being tied to having workers depending on work load. TBH £16-£17 for a long term contractor doing the same work as the guys in the shop for £12 is about the right ballpark - if they supply all consumables/equipment to use. I would stipulate that they need to write up an agreement to verify you are covered on their insurance both for you and any work you do.

But something doesn't sound right for sure. Doing this the employer sounds like they don't care for you much sorry to say. The other thing is they have got out of any redundancy liability. It smells of dead things.

It's not that he will be paying me more, as rocketman says it currently costs around £30 to employ me with overheads, he won't pay me anywhere near that.

 

[JSR]

I would keep it as, sounds like you're on a good screw now, don't mess with it.

Soon as you go SE he'll be pinning you down on the rates.


There's nothing stopping you going SE, while working for him (subject to clauses in your contract with him) build up sone work and then take up the offer, that way he hasn't got you by the balls.

Kind of forcing my hand.

 

[8ob]

Why not level with your employer and tell him your concerns? I dont see whats stopping you doing a trial period of three months while still being on the books. Along the lines that he feeds you the work and you smash it out like a typical SE person would, he then pays you the difference between what you have cost him and whats been earned at the end of that period. Neither of you can lose out and will both get to see the benefits/drawbacks , just thoughts.

Bob

 

[JSR]

Why not level with your employer and tell him your concerns? I dont see whats stopping you doing a trial period of three months while still being on the books. Along the lines that he feeds you the work and you smash it out like a typical SE person would, he then pays you the difference between what you have cost him and whats been earned at the end of that period. Neither of you can lose out and will both get to see the benefits/drawbacks , just thoughts.

Bob

Funnily enough, he offered a 2 month trial today.

 

[Wallace]

Having you working self employed using their tools on their hours is in effect Tax Evasion, they are trying to avoid Class 1 NI contributions, sick & holiday pay, pension etc.

 

[Paul.]

Having you working self employed using their tools on their hours is in effect Tax Evasion, they are trying to avoid Class 1 NI contributions, sick & holiday pay, pension etc.

I agree with this, I can't see how the hmrc will accept the described arrangement as self employed, you turn up at the same place every day, get issued with the jobs that the company wants you to do, you use their equipment and premises, and are probably expecting to be covered by their insurance, this is employment not self employment and the hmrc will take a dim view of it if it comes to their attention,
A long time ago I worked for an engineering company that had a so called "self employed" van driver for over 10 years on just this arrangement, a random compliance check by the inland revenue as it then was, resulted in the company having to fork out for 10 years back NI contributions, and the driver being taken on the books, I believe he also had a penalty imposed.

The rules are very simple, see here.
https://www.gov.uk/working-for-yourself