Help Please Garage Electrics

[jackojacks]

Can anyone help i have a very strange problem that keeps happening.
All seems ok and all Power tools work ok.
The welder is down on Power when other things are plugged in but ok if all other sockets are turned off.
But when i use my welder it keeps melting the earth wire in my garage wireing and yesterday i did a few tacks turned round and smoke was coming out of my bench grinder so i unplugged it quick and thought that may be the problem did a couple more tacks and smoke was coming out of my bench Drill.
But if i plug my bench grinder and drill back in they work fine although i will have to rewire them now .
I have a trip in the house which when the earth melts thru anothe wire it will throw the trip off.
Could the fault be in the Welder as i have renewd the garage wiring that got damaged the first time it melted the earth wire. and have checked sockets for faults.
Has anyone any ideas as to the possible problem because its got me beat.
any information or Advice will be considered and used at my own risk But please someone HELP HELP
Thanks Jacko..

 

[madkayaker]

Sounds to me like you have no neutral and you using earth as return which is very dangerous. Time to turn garage off at house and call an electrician

 

[bricol]

I had a very similar thing happen - melted the cable to my pillar drill which was placed on my metal bench - thought it was a short in the drill as it looked like the cable had rubbed through inside it. But then I noticed the same plastic burning smell next time I used my welder - power cable getting warm - nothing else plugged in. Garage feed from house wasn't tripping either. Then I noticed out of the corner of my eye, a spark jump from a croc-clip sat on the rear upstand of my bench to the case of a metal socket on the wall above it - the clip was almost but not quite touching.

That gave me a clue - a quick test of my welder with a multimeter - the welding return was connected to mains earth via a dodgy connection inside the welder - basically the welding current was charging down the eath wire in the power cable, over loading of course, and over-heating it, when I didn't have a good connection with the welding return clamp.

Quick repair of the welder wiring, and it works fine now.

Bri

 

[MoreWellie]

It sounds like Earth and Neutral are reversed on the main wire supplying your garage. The earth is sometimes a lighter wire than the live and neutral as it normally doesn't carry the full current

the weird bit is your description of what happens to the other tools when you use your welder, if they aren't in use at the time they smoke then they should be isolated by their own switches and so shouldn't be part of the circuit at all. Unless they and the things you are welding are all bolted/clamped to the same metal bench

I second the call for stop working and call an electrician

 

[Robotstar5]

If the earth wire has melted other cables causing trips, there may be damage to other circuits where they run alongside the workshop feed or inside the CU.
As above, isolate workshop feed and get a sparky in to examine/test installation.

 

[jackojacks]

All looks good at Consumer unit damage only seems to accours after the socket where welder is plugged in no damage before there ie the house end of things i notice my compressor which is wired direct into a cooker socket the earth to that is undamaged but the cable that carries on and fed the drill and bench grinder the earth is melted my compressor is on rubber feet the drill and grinder are bolted to my steel bench. will prob have to get a sparkey in all looks good inside the welder no loose wires and all connections good in all sockets Very Strange
Thanks for the Advice so far please keep, it coming if something springs to mind.

 

[Robotstar5]

If you have access to a multimeter, check from the welder plug earth pin to the work return (earth) clamp and from the plug earth pin to the copper tip of the torch, both should show high or infinate resistance.

Both tests carried out with welder unplugged from mains

 

[jackojacks]

If you have access to a multimeter, check from the welder plug earth pin to the work return (earth) clamp and from the plug earth pin to the copper tip of the torch, both should show high or infinate resistance.

Both tests carried out with welder unplugged from mains

Thanks for this i think mine only checks continuity i will have a look tomoz but now i know what to check on the welder i can get it checked and go from there. i have isolated the damaged part of the garage wiring . my compressor 14cfm so quite big motor runs ok with no cables getting hot so i think the problem lies in the welder . my Garage power supply comes out of its own block at the c /unit lives neuteral and earths all in correct positions . Thanks all for your input on this.

 

[jackojacks]

I had a very similar thing happen - melted the cable to my pillar drill which was placed on my metal bench - thought it was a short in the drill as it looked like the cable had rubbed through inside it. But then I noticed the same plastic burning smell next time I used my welder - power cable getting warm - nothing else plugged in. Garage feed from house wasn't tripping either. Then I noticed out of the corner of my eye, a spark jump from a croc-clip sat on the rear upstand of my bench to the case of a metal socket on the wall above it - the clip was almost but not quite touching.

That gave me a clue - a quick test of my welder with a multimeter - the welding return was connected to mains earth via a dodgy connection inside the welder - basically the welding current was charging down the eath wire in the power cable, over loading of course, and over-heating it, when I didn't have a good connection with the welding return clamp.

Quick repair of the welder wiring, and it works fine now.

Bri

I think this is what is happening as my compressor which is wired into the same socket as bench grinder has no damage the only difference is my compressor is not bolted to my steel bench and is on rubber feet so offers to path for the elctric to follow.
Thanks all
when ive done all the checks i can i will get a spark in . Me and my dad wired my garage years ago so i know my way around my set up quite well . i pulled the main fuse when i shut the door just to play safe

 

[MoreWellie]

Thanks for this i think mine only checks continuity

This is what you need in order to confirm what Bricol is suggesting. If there is continuity between your work return clamp and the mains earth on the welder plug and you are welding on the steel bench with your earth clamp making a bad connection the return current will use the earth cables in your drill and grinder to make the circuit

giving poor welding performance and smoking cables

 

[jackojacks]

Thany You All
I have checked continuity and very strangely 1 miniute its ok then its not so it looks like we have found the problem just now need to find what is going on all connections in the welder seem ok.
My earth clamp goes into the jack plug on the welder then a heavy copper cable dissapears into a transformer all appears ok .
Im wondering at the miniute if there could be a break in the earth wire in the mains power lead to the welder.
So more investigation needed but looks like were homing in on the fault. i cant get it to loose continuaty again at the miniute
THE Welder is a sip Ideal 210 had it from new never been worked on till now.

Thanks for all the Help its Much Appriciated

 

[MoreWellie]

I would not expect there to be continuity between the work return lead and the mains earth, there is no continuity on mine

the socket the work return lead plugs in to would normally be insulated from the panel, has that socket been replaced at some point and the insulation left out? or has it cracked and come into contact with the casing?

 

[octo0072000]

Thany You All
I have checked continuity and very strangely 1 miniute its ok then its not so it looks like we have found the problem just now need to find what is going on all connections in the welder seem ok.
My earth clamp goes into the jack plug on the welder then a heavy copper cable dissapears into a transformer all appears ok .
Im wondering at the miniute if there could be a break in the earth wire in the mains power lead to the welder.
So more investigation needed but looks like were homing in on the fault. i cant get it to loose continuaty again at the miniute
THE Welder is a sip Ideal 210 had it from new never been worked on till now.

Thanks for all the Help its Much Appriciated

Jack plug you mean dinse plug
have you removed the dinse plug rubber cover to see if the wire is corroded not making a full contact
if so your bench grinder etc that's bolted to the bench is acting as your earth return
if yo remove all other plugs from the bench will the welder still work or not you could try wiggling the earth and trying to weld
just a thought

 

[jackojacks]

Yes if plugs are pulled out to things bolted to bench welder works fine full power if thing are plugged in ie bench drill and grinder power is right down on welder and we get smoke.
i do have continuity from welder mains plug earth and welder earth clamp but was loosing it earlier . and also have continuity from mains plug earth and torch tip.
So should i have continuity from mains plug earth to work clamp earth??
will pull rubber on dinse plug . Thanks

 

[Robotstar5]

i do have continuity from welder mains plug earth and welder earth clamp but was loosing it earlier . and also have continuity from mains plug earth and torch tip.
So should i have continuity from mains plug earth to work clamp earth?

Definately NOT! the dinse socket should be insulated from the weldset casing, there should be no continuity from mains earth to torch tip either.

 

[octo0072000]

Definately NOT! the dinse socket should be insulated from the weldset casing, there should be no continuity from mains earth to torch tip either.

as said

 

[jackojacks]

So That is the problem then . i have got continuity from mains plug earth to my welding tip [but not the shroud.]
and i also have continuity from mains plug earth to my welding clamp earth [dinse plug? ]
so does anyone have any ideas what would cause this.
wont get to look at this much over the weekend but will be back at it monday so if you have any ideas in the mean time please let me know .
Thanks again for your help so far

 

[Robotstar5]

Disconnect the wire from the transformer to the back of the work return dinse socket then test for continuity between work return (earth) clamp and the mains earth pin on plug, if you still have continuity dismantle the dinse socket and find out where you have an unwanted connection to the case, there should be insulating/plastic between brass part and case.
If the above test proves OK, leave dinse socket disconnected and test between tip and mains earth, wiggle torch lead while doing this, should be open circuit (no continuity)

 

[jackojacks]

Thanks i will report back when i have tried this im getting my head round it a bit now i should have continuity from plug to welder casing cos the plug earth bolts to the casing
but not from the work earth lead as this should be insulated. and may be my Problem
Have a good weekend all
Many Thanks

 

[Flapdisk]

Sounds to me like you have no neutral and you using earth as return which is very dangerous. Time to turn garage off at house and call an electrician

I had a wiring problem in my new home and I got my meter out and measured a dead short to earth from neutral. I called the electric company and they came out, said there was nothing wrong! I said well there is a dead short to earth from neutral, He said it's meant to be, the house is supplied through an overhead wire and the earth is connected to the neutral? I had never heard of that before, but I've been here 12 years now with no problems.