carlos 318is
Needs help
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- 107
I would have to agree with that
- Thread starter stormin
- Start date
I would have to agree with that
pedrobedro
Man at Matalan
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Recycled thinners is just old stock no longer guaranteed for use with paint. You can't get the thinners back out of paint once it's been applied (joke) I always use standard thinners with cellulose primer, why wouldn't you ? £4 for 5 litres last I bought. Nitro for higher flash is a different matter, more like £6 for one litre.
This is a mind field of crap when it comes down to gun wash vs thinners vs cellulose. You can use thinners to wash your gun and thin your paint but you must not use gun wash to thin your paint.
If you check the MSDS papers for different manufacturers of thinners you will see a vast difference in the ingredients. Paint technology is and can be simple but depending on brand, type of hardener, base coats, base colour paints and so on they all have different qualities. I personally am overwhelmed by it all hence how i came across this thread.
The moral of this story is if you use a generic thinner and something goes terribly wrong, you contact the manufacturer to complain then they will most likely ignore you because you did not use their recommended thinners.
I shall elaborate, Standox add all sorts into their thinners and they have specific thinners for base coats and others for top coats and further more for other kinds of topcoat base-coat combinations. Why? because they are insane technology chemical developers that just want to make things so complex no one other than the manufacturer can understand it forcing the DIY person into the "sod it i'll get the OEM to sort it" attitude.
These companies only want to sell the product to the OEM and not the public so we are pretty much screwed with overpriced baffled by science stuff that dont really do anything different than the even more dangerous old stuff. The problem is, to sell to the public they must meet a particular environmental safety charter set by the authorities whoever they are. It is just simpler for them to continue selling to OEM until they find an alternative for public use.
Regardless, Gun Wash contains higher ratio mixes of very harsh chemicals to actually dissolve partially dried or even fully cured paint. Acetone being a main ingredient as well as cellulose and xylene. Thinners have less of these compounds, in some cases they even contain methyl-ethyl-ketone to accelerate drying/evaporation. You wont find this in gun wash so only specific thinners. If you used gun wash or cellulose as a thinner you would find that adding more coats of paint would desolve the paint bellow it and could mix with it creating the same effect as laying it on too thick. It also causes cracking in the long run as cellulose takes a while to evaporate unlike ethyl types which evaporate very quickly.
I am no expert so i am just sharing what i know to help someone out who comes across this thread.
From what i can gather, 2pak paint is a resin, acrylic based plastic paint. Cellulose melts plastic paints so i would have thought using a cellulose thinner would cause the base-coat to bubble, expand or shrink and damage the possible brilliant finish. Cellulose paints were banned a few years ago for this reason as they are so dangerous atomizing them in a spray gun just needed to be stopped. Acrylic paints on the other hand are plastics made liquid by chemicals such as acetone and so on(whatever the mixture ratios) rather than cellulose so putting a cellulose thinner amongst them would one be illegal and secondly would account for the reasonable results people are getting as it is effectively thinning and diluting the plastic paint.
Drop a thin piece of plastic in Gun Wash and the same type of plastic in thinners to see the effects on it between them. Gun Wash will melt the plastic, it is that simple. Note that cellulose in some industries is used to stick plastic together buy melting the two surfaces into each other before it evaporates.
If you check the MSDS papers for different manufacturers of thinners you will see a vast difference in the ingredients. Paint technology is and can be simple but depending on brand, type of hardener, base coats, base colour paints and so on they all have different qualities. I personally am overwhelmed by it all hence how i came across this thread.
The moral of this story is if you use a generic thinner and something goes terribly wrong, you contact the manufacturer to complain then they will most likely ignore you because you did not use their recommended thinners.
I shall elaborate, Standox add all sorts into their thinners and they have specific thinners for base coats and others for top coats and further more for other kinds of topcoat base-coat combinations. Why? because they are insane technology chemical developers that just want to make things so complex no one other than the manufacturer can understand it forcing the DIY person into the "sod it i'll get the OEM to sort it" attitude.
These companies only want to sell the product to the OEM and not the public so we are pretty much screwed with overpriced baffled by science stuff that dont really do anything different than the even more dangerous old stuff. The problem is, to sell to the public they must meet a particular environmental safety charter set by the authorities whoever they are. It is just simpler for them to continue selling to OEM until they find an alternative for public use.
Regardless, Gun Wash contains higher ratio mixes of very harsh chemicals to actually dissolve partially dried or even fully cured paint. Acetone being a main ingredient as well as cellulose and xylene. Thinners have less of these compounds, in some cases they even contain methyl-ethyl-ketone to accelerate drying/evaporation. You wont find this in gun wash so only specific thinners. If you used gun wash or cellulose as a thinner you would find that adding more coats of paint would desolve the paint bellow it and could mix with it creating the same effect as laying it on too thick. It also causes cracking in the long run as cellulose takes a while to evaporate unlike ethyl types which evaporate very quickly.
I am no expert so i am just sharing what i know to help someone out who comes across this thread.
From what i can gather, 2pak paint is a resin, acrylic based plastic paint. Cellulose melts plastic paints so i would have thought using a cellulose thinner would cause the base-coat to bubble, expand or shrink and damage the possible brilliant finish. Cellulose paints were banned a few years ago for this reason as they are so dangerous atomizing them in a spray gun just needed to be stopped. Acrylic paints on the other hand are plastics made liquid by chemicals such as acetone and so on(whatever the mixture ratios) rather than cellulose so putting a cellulose thinner amongst them would one be illegal and secondly would account for the reasonable results people are getting as it is effectively thinning and diluting the plastic paint.
Drop a thin piece of plastic in Gun Wash and the same type of plastic in thinners to see the effects on it between them. Gun Wash will melt the plastic, it is that simple. Note that cellulose in some industries is used to stick plastic together buy melting the two surfaces into each other before it evaporates.
And me and I have not typed anything .
just read lol
I just paid 19 quid for a litre of Zxlene thinners for stove paint.. Not sure what the difference is but the 25 litre tub of thinners I had did not nix well with the stove paint...not sure why.
ajlelectronics
Member
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- Gloucester, England
Oh yes?
steviec_lj
Rust Welding Professional
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- 2,806
- Location
- Barnetby, N.Lincs
When did Celly get banned??
ajlelectronics
Member
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- Gloucester, England
Well I'm still buying it locally, so clearly it isn't!
As far as i know you need to either know the supplier or state its for agricultural use and not for cars.
steviec_lj
Rust Welding Professional
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- 2,806
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- Barnetby, N.Lincs
That's a new one on me! They haven't banned any paints around here.
I can still go to Humberside Paints and get Celly based paint and thinners.
If there were laws prohibiting sales to the general public, you wouldn't be able to buy it online.
Creosote is the one that's gone over to agricultural/professional use only. But you can still buy that too..
I can still go to Humberside Paints and get Celly based paint and thinners.
If there were laws prohibiting sales to the general public, you wouldn't be able to buy it online.
Creosote is the one that's gone over to agricultural/professional use only. But you can still buy that too..
I bought some cellulose and 2k gloss and both state only for classic car repairs or non automotive use but that's only restriction and can't really see how anyone could prove what something is bought for. The actual paint isn't banned just modern body shops can't use it as it's non compliant
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We use 'Standard Thinner' £20/25l for priming and washing. Topcoats, use the relevant thinners to the paint. Drying times tend to be much longer if the standard thinner gets used instead of the 'fast finish' thinner that is recommended.
This isnt for high quality work I must add. Just painted fabricated metalwork.
This isnt for high quality work I must add. Just painted fabricated metalwork.
steviec_lj
Rust Welding Professional
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- 2,806
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- Barnetby, N.Lincs
Still doesn't state anything about it being banned. Reread the second paragraph, it is still available and NOT illegal.
I'd like to say that it will be policed well, but it wont.
I agree but this is the important part. "It is against the law for us to supply and for you to use Cellulose on modern vehicles or any other use that falls outside the 3 applications listed above"
As long as you say its for one of the uses they list namely
Industrial Use
or
Restoration of Classic & Vintage Vehicles
and then YOU use it on a new car it sounds like neither have you have done anything illegal.. lol
brightspark
Member
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- yarm stockton on tees
a bit like genuine creosote. if your a professional or a farmer u can still buy it . im a professional and bought some 
they dont ask u what profession u are in 
so there doing nothing wrong
they dont ask u what profession u are in so there doing nothing wrongDo you have to mop it or add a top oat of lacquer???a bit like genuine creosote. if your a professional or a farmer u can still buy it . im a professional and bought some
brightspark
Member
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- yarm stockton on tees
no just add waste engine oil and it goes shiny and burns like hell
