Gasless wire

[KMpuggy]

Ive just gone out and brought a 2nd hand clarke 165E and now i have the problem of getting some gas. Ive got a few places in mind and will make some calls 2moro. But i very much doubt i will be able to afford any gas until next week. Its got a big reel about 3/4 full of wire already in it, was told it was 0.6 or maybe 0.8mm, seller couldnt remember. As you know what us big kids are like with new toys, we want to play with them straight away.

So the question is, is it ok to stick some gasless wire in it and get some practice in with it? does the welder need any modifications to make it use the gasless stuff? or is it a simple plug and play. Im new to welding so go easy on me.

Cheers

Glenn

 

[the snooper]

to use gasless wire you have to reverse the polarity ie torch negative and work clamp positive.
so in short no you cant use gasless if the machine isnt set up for it and gasless wire is an expensive way to weld

 

[KMpuggy]

ahh, cheers, just i see a roll of the gasless stuff for a tenner in a local shop and thought it might be an option.

 

[the snooper]

i wouldnt buy the tiny hobby gas bottles either they only last 10 to 15 minutes.
if your lucky

 

[KMpuggy]

Dont worry about that mate, im staying well clear of them. The welder came with a twin gauge type argon regulator so thats something i dont need to worry about. Im not going to go waste £££ on a reg to take the baby bottle then some bottles just to weld a couple of ft before they go in the bin.

 

[GeorgeB]

So the question is, is it ok to stick some gasless wire in it and get some practice in with it? does the welder need any modifications to make it use the gasless stuff? or is it a simple plug and play. Im new to welding so go easy on me.

To use gasless wire you have to reverse the polarity, i.e. torch negative and work clamp positive.

So, in short, yes you can use gasless if either (a) the machine is set up for switching polarity or (b) if you change the polarity yourself. This really is not very difficult, if you're DIY/electrics minded.

Gasless wire is a cheaper way to MIG weld, in my opinion, at least if you only do a few jobs a year. Whilst the gasless wire per metre is more expensive than plain MIG wire, you don't need gas. Both disposable bottles and large bottle rental can get quite expensive.

I tried gasless welding recently and was pleasantly surprised. I'd be inclined to give it a bash, even if you can't change the polarity. I haven't tried it with the wrong polarity yet, but Id be surprised if you don't get something of a weld.

 

[OUCH! That's hot!]

Have a look at the bottom of this page, (welder polarity paragraph), you might get away without changing the polarity, it may be worth giving it a try. Unless anybody knows different?

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/gasless-mig.htm

 

[malcolm]

A similar question was raised recently and I'm planning to get some gasless wire and experiment further with polarity. Especially with the wrong polarity. The words on that page were based on only a couple of welds with a Clarke 90.

My guess (and that's all that is at this stage) is the change in polarity will affect penetration, but that the welder won't suddenly explode. It's possible weld defects might become more of a problem with the wrong polarity.

 

[OUCH! That's hot!]

Does anybody know why polarity makes any difference?

 

[malcolm]

On a basic level (as much as I can follow) the heat in the weld tends to be concentrated more at the positive side. That's why TIG welders are run torch negative (so the tungsten doesn't fry).

There's a lot more to it than that (the stuff I can't follow) and there are processes that get more penetration running in quite the opposite polarity than you would expect.

 

[GeorgeB]

Have a look at the bottom of this page, (welder polarity paragraph), you might get away without changing the polarity, it may be worth giving it a try. Unless anybody knows different?

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/gasless-mig.htm

Exactly! It was Malcolm's excellent pictures on his (presumed) quite early attempts at gasless MIG welding which suggested it was worth trying. After all, many people using normal MIG wire and costly Argon mix gas, don't get welds looking half as good as Malcolm's gasless welds, despite his reservations in the text. I also read that "gasless" is called "flux core" in industry and it appears to be a leading, highly respected process, at least in some quarters. Links to websites by welding experts who swear by the process on request...

 

[clem dog]

george i think that the flux core wire used in industry required a gas shield as well because a lot of the things in the wire are to do with metallurgy for different types of steel rather than just saving on gas. I think they run straight polarity iirc.
These types of wire dont really have much of a diy use i would imagine.
Clem

 

[KMpuggy]

Cheers for the info, from reading that link it seems like its not 100% necessary to reverse the polarity. Ive had a little look at the welder at swaping the wires around, i think will leave it alone. I know what im like, ive got a habit of breaking things, i will blow it up before ive even used it. I will be getting a bottle of argon/co2 mix in the next few days so i will stick with that. Maybe in the future when ive gained some experiance then it might be worth looking into and having a bash.

Just a quick question while im here. What sort of argon/c02 mix should i go for? 80/20%? will be welding mostly on the car, to start off with the inner sills so pretty thinish metal. Ive got a couple of old wings and doors in the shed to practice welding on to build up some confidence before i move onto the motor.

 

[shenion]

I also read that "gasless" is called "flux core" in industry and it appears to be a leading, highly respected process, at least in some quarters. Links to websites by welding experts who swear by the process on request...

Don't confuse gassless wire with high-end flux core wires.

The high-end flux-core wires are used with a shielding gas. The flux helps keep the heat in and is much easier on positional.

There are some users on the forum that use flux core wires; 1.2/1.6mm with CO2 gas.

Gasless is ok, you do need good wire. The Clarke stuff that came with my 130EN just did not seem that good. The Lincoln wire I used seemed much cleaner.

Personally, I'd arc weld over gasless as it is cleaner with less spatter.

Note on polarity: Many low-end MIGs are now AC, so seems gasless wire will work in either polarity.

 

[malcolm]

Never assume anything. Especially if it's based on anything I've said.

Don't confuse flux core wire with gasless wire. OK, so they are both called flux core wire, but in one of them the flux is mostly granules of metal intended to increase penetration in spray transfer, and in the other (gasless) it's stuff like the covering on arc rods intended to shield the weld.

KMpuggy: In America the gas for thin metal would be roughly 20% CO2 and 80% Argon. In the UK we often add a bit of oxygen which does a lot of the work of CO2, and it ends up 93% Argon, 2% Oxygen and 5% CO2. Or something like that. Cultural differences. The two are roughly equivalent to use, and some of the independent (cheaper) suppliers in the UK do it the American way.

 

[matt1978]

The gas companies try and tell us that the Oxygen is there for 'Wettability' in the weld pool, but the truth is that they use crude Argon (because its cheaper) for the Ar/Co2 mig mixes and this Argon has trace elements of Oygen mixed in. I have been told by people in the know, thats its for no other reason than that and they try and put a positive spin on it.

The Argon for tig welding and other indsustrial appications has to be processed further to remove all of the Oxygen and is more costly to produce.

 

[Bsmith]

The gas companies try and tell us that the Oxygen is there for 'Wettability' in the weld pool, but the truth is that they use crude Argon (because its cheaper) for the Ar/Co2 mig mixes and this Argon has trace elements of Oygen mixed in. I have been told by people in the know, thats its for no other reason than that and they try and put a positive spin on it.

The Argon for tig welding and other indsustrial appications has to be processed further to remove all of the Oxygen and is more costly to produce.

So if we have a bottle of argon on the tig and we get a bottle of co2, have flowmeters on both, why should'nt we mix our own argoshield for the mig?
(maybe should have started another thread with this)

 

[matt1978]

So if we have a bottle of argon on the tig and we get a bottle of co2, have flowmeters on both, why should'nt we mix our own argoshield for the mig?
(maybe should have started another thread with this)

You could do that, but because of the pressures involved you need specialist equipment, but there is absolutely no technical reason why you couldnt.

 

[shenion]

I mix my own here with a Smith gas mixer (retails for £1000 new.) Picked it up for $50.

I'm tempted to get rid of it and use 2 regs, 2 flowmeters and check valves Tee'd together.

 

[Bsmith]

You could do that, but because of the pressures involved you need specialist equipment, but there is absolutely no technical reason why you couldnt.

Never thought on the different pressures, thanks matt. But even so, set both regulators to have an out press of say 15psi, then set both flow meters maybe 9lpm co2 and 1lpm argon. hoses then connected to a y piece to mig welder?