Gas rental question - Regulator rental "Qlixbi" from Energas?

[superclarkey]

I agree facts matter, that’s exactly why I’m asking questions and working through options. The reality is you often have to make provisional assumptions until you can correct them with testing or better information.

On your side, I’m also curious how you’re verifying the output from your setup. I don’t know what a “Smith mixer” is, is it a proportional mixer (setpoint/dial), or does it actually measure the blend and give a composition readout?

If you’re targeting something like C18 (18% CO₂):

• How accurately can you hit it with your mixer in day-to-day use?
• Have you ever checked the delivered mix with an analyser, or are you working on the assumption that the dial setting is “close enough”?
• Roughly what did the mixer cost (and does it need specific regulators/pressures to stay accurate)?

Genuinely interested, because if it’s repeatable and verifiable, it’s a sensible route. I’m just trying to separate “set and assume” from “set and confirm,” same as I’m doing with supplier claims.

 

[Erie Fred]

They get calibrated, the LWS has a machine in a briefcase to do it, bring it
to your shop.

I'm done here, your on your own.

 

[superclarkey]

I don't know what a LWS is, so they can be calibrated?

You've said I need to know the facts, I've asked to be educated on a matter I don't know, I've asked some broad questions to try and understand and this has frustrated you to the point you do not wish to help me?

Then don't blame me if I have to make reasonable assumptions if no one is willing to share information with me.

I'm trying to understand how me going going from 3 bottles of certified gas (CoA) here in the uk, from a suppler people know, however I would benefit from a Smiths gauge/device/tool, whatever that is. Far as I can see, making an assumption as you will not help me here, at best I can go from an Argon, ArC8 and ArC18 bottle down (3 bottle setup) down to a Argon and CO2 bottle, so I will save a £150 ish per year. If this Smiths machine is £1000/£2000 (no idea) then it likely not the better route.

 

[Munkul]

Not being funny here Richard, but you've only got your own limited experience to pull from, and there are a handful of people on here having spent their lives around fab shops... Don't discount their experience/ideas.
Your very smart brain is trying to compute answers that are textbook perfect, without having real life experience to see cheaper/simpler ways that most people go for.

The reality is, a pair of regulators and gas flowmeters into a tee will get you within 5% anyway. A smith proportional mixer will be even better. (use google)
"oh but flowmeters aren't accurate/regulators won't be matched" etc... Heard these arguments before. People simply don't understand differential pressure/flow, nor do they understand the fixed reference of a rotameter.

 

[Munkul]

Also no, i don't think fred waa suggestinh pure co2, it's pointless, why would you want to meter a tiny bit of co2 and have to be super accurate with it, when you could go 65:35 with pure Ar : Mig5 and get a pretty accurate 2%CO2 equivalent mix?
Still 2 cylinders, but they do all your regular mig and tig, plus the opportunity to try out stainless pulse mig with a gas mixer when you want to.
Forget the 18% mix, WHY do you want it?

 

[Munkul]

You know what's really great? Having a mig welder with one bottle of gas that just welds everything really well, from 1mm to 25mm.
This is my experience as a responsible welding coordinator and a welder myself.
I used to have two separate setups in my last workplace for thick and thin stuff. Two identical kemppi kempomat 400s, one with argoshield light, one with heavy.

Having learned from the experience of others, i can have the 2 identical lorch pulse migs set up with the same gas in my current workplace.

When you're real with yourself about what you weld mostly, you can make the best compromise.

If we were welding heavy section all day long, I'd maybe consider 1.2 wire and heavy gas instead. In fact, there was a time we were doing that. It goes a bit quicker and a bit hotter.

But right now, we're welding 10mm and under 90% of the time...

 

[hotponyshoes]

Mixing gas is theoretically very simple.
Just choose how many decimal places you want to work too and do the maths.

If you are filling pre-mix cylinders for customers then the accuracy of the mix will just depend on how much time and money you spend on the filling kit and pushing tanks through it.

If a vetinary nurse can manually mix gas to within 1% just by twiddling knobs I'm pretty sure the big guys like boc could get it to 0.1% on an automated filling line without much bother.

It's when there is any manual input in the process that it goes off spec.
If an employee has 55 bottles to fill in the final 2 hours before home time and a toothache is he really going to open each one and check they are completely empty or is he just going to chuck the fresh gas in on top sending your 1% accuracy right out of the window.

Same deal with home mixing,
It's really very simple fool proof.
If you want a 10% mix you set one flow gauge to 9lpm and one to 1lpm. Push them into a Y piece and you'll get a 10% mix out.
Unless you have a leak you cannot get anything other than a 10% mix out.
You'll then 'upgrade' the Y piece by adding some sort of gas mixer to ensure all the gas you are drawing is 90/10.
Ie, if you think of gas like body filler you want all the gas coming out yellow. No sign of red streaks of hardener!

You can't change physics so the only limit on accuracy will be how accurate the flow gauges are and how accurately you can read them.

I managed to mix my own 2% for ages (until I found a rent-free) using a trio of pea shooters and a pipe stuffed with wire wool.
No idea how 'accurate' the mix was but I cannot tell any difference between my home mix and the bottle mix.

I can't check either of them.
The only gas analyser I have is for oxygen. That was fairly expensive and the fairly expensive sensor in it is a consumable part so I've never looked into getting any others.
Having said that I could probably get my hands on a c02 analyser easily enough.. I'll look into that one..

I'd also agree with the previous comments about 'does it really matter?'
Example,
I've got an ewm and all the steel/stainless synergic programs for that use mixes that are not locally available in the UK.
I've not worried about it because:
The aluminium programs are set up with 100% argon and I do have that.
BUT, I still need to tweak settings to get it running just how I like it.
My guess is that I would still have to tweak the settings on steel/stainless even with the specified gas being used.

Your welder might be different but before spending hours searching for gas why not find a program for a gas you do have and try running a job at the default settings.
If it's 100% mind-blowing good maybe keep gas hunting.
If you have to turn around and adjust anything then just use whatever close mix is easily available and adjust the welder to suit.

 

[superclarkey]

I’m going to park the technical side for a minute because this has turned into people having a go at me rather than discussing anything.

I asked genuine questions. That’s not “not listening” and it’s not me being difficult, it’s literally how you learn.

What I got back (especially early on) was the kind of tone that reads like “why are you even doing that?” / “stop overthinking” / “just do it” and when I tried to engage, it got shut down with “I’m done here, you’re on your own.” That isn’t teaching anyone anything, it’s just a put-down.

Also, respectfully, I don’t know any of you from Adam. Online usernames don’t come with a CV attached. If you want your advice taken as gospel, then give a bit of context on why you’re saying it and what your experience is. Otherwise it’s just “trust me bro” and I’m not obligated to take that at face value, especially when it’s delivered with attitude.

I’m not here to argue or “be right”. I’m here to ask questions and understand. In my own trade, if someone asks something basic, I don’t jump down their throat, I explain it, and if they don't understand, I explain it in a different way.

So can we keep it civil? If you think I’m wasting my time, fine, say that without the digs. If you’ve got experience worth sharing, share it without the personal attacks.

 

[superclarkey]

I started this thread asking a simple question:

Looking to get gas supplied from Energas, but I've been told that I have no option but to go for the Qlixbi regulator on top of the bottle from Energas, it works out per bottle at £5.50 per month, ontop of the monthly rental of £12.80, so that is £18.30 per bottle, per month.

I need 3 bottles with this system, so thats £54.90 a month, or £658.80 in bottle rental alone. Just seems like a ridiculous extra cost when I already have perfectly personally owned regulators. (adds nothing of value to the process).

Has anyone paid the extra for these?

I was asking if anyone had come across this billing issue with regards to the head rental, and if it’s reasonable to pay (the fact I started the thread shows I don’t think it is).

I was asked why I wanted to run 3 bottles of gas, I thought I explained that well. I have the need for 3 gases: pure Argon for TIG/MIG, and ArC8 and ArC18 for MAG. That doesn’t seem idiotic or wrong.

A device was mentioned that would let me drop from 3 bottles to 2 (Argon + CO₂), which sounds great. I’ve just never used a mixer like that before, or seen one.

My concern is simple: Argon and CO₂ behave differently (density etc.), so I don’t understand how you can reliably hit, say, C18 just by “two regs into a tee” without the mix wandering as flow demand / pressures change. I’m not saying it can’t be done, I’m saying I don’t know how it’s done properly without calibration. This is where I was expecting a clear explanation so I can build knowledge.

So when you say “Smith mixer”, what is it actually doing to keep the ratio stable, and how is it checked (spec, calibration, etc.)? These are reasonable questions about something I’ve never heard of before, being told by someone I don’t know.

No one has given me a link to the device or where to buy one. I don’t know if it’s something you can put together for a few quid, or if it’s something “larger companies” invest in, which sounds like it could be very expensive.

That’s why I asked about cost: there has to be a point where it makes sense to mix your own vs paying for certified premix (CoA) gas from a local dealer (barrier-to-entry).

No information has been given, so I can’t just accept it at face value. That doesn’t mean it’s wrong, and I wasn’t trying to turn it into a right vs wrong argument.

The fact I’m on a forum asking questions shows I’m willing to learn and open to discussion. If I’d already made my mind up, I wouldn’t be here.

If the machine can be purchased and it’s reasonably accurate and reasonably priced, great, sign me up. Where do I buy it and how often does it need to be calibrated?

If this forum isn’t about asking opinions and discussing things, and is instead “take the first answer at face value and act on it,” then fair enough, that’s just not how I operate. I don’t treat customers like that either, I try to explain and help, and I’ll always say “this is my opinion, go and get other opinions too, then make your own mind up.”

I will not post on the forum again. Shame been on here since 2011, read allot of threads, learnt loads, but life is too short to argue with people I don't know lol.

Take it easy guys.

 

[More Amps]

Gas Mixer MG-3 FIX

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Hi-Lo UK

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IBEDA gas mixers

for many areas of application.

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Google is your friend - and any of the above should be able to answer any technical questions...and I'm sure will happily provide you with a price if you're sitting down.

 

[hotponyshoes]

My concern is simple: Argon and CO₂ behave differently (density etc.), so I don’t understand how you can reliably hit, say, C18 just by “two regs into a tee” without the mix wandering as flow demand / pressures change. I’m not saying it can’t be done, I’m saying I don’t know how it’s done properly without calibration. This is where I was expecting a clear explanation so I can build knowledge.

The gasses might behave differently but you have regulators attached to each bottle. That gives you a steady source of that particular gas at a constant pressure.

You then send the gas to a flow gauge. If one flow gauge is passing 9lpm and the other is passing 1lpm (and you combine them both) you'll get 10lpm.
That's just physics. 100% reliable.

How accurate it is will depend on the gauges used.
Primarily if those flow gauges were originally calibrated for that specific type of gas and if they have remained accurate.
If the gauges read 9/1 (or 8.2/1.8 to get your 18% mix then that's what you should get.

In terms of testing or calibration, same as anything else.
If you want to weld with gas running at 12lpm how do you check that?
You either se the gauge to 12lpm and hope for the best, or, start at 12lpm on the gauge then adjust if required, or, obtain whatever test equipment you need to check the flow rate to whatever level of accuracy you require.
Same with testing a gas mixture. Set it and go for it, or, set it, adjust as required, or spend some money on test kit.

At least you have the advantage of being able to adjust if you think it's needed.
If you buy a bottle of 18% (or whatever) you have no way of adjusting that mix. So It's either use it and hope for the best or spend the money on testing kit to check every bottle you open.


Cost wise,
The maths I have done tells me Rent-free is cheaper than rental if you use less than 3 bottles a year.
But that's about all I worked out. I don't know what sort of premium you pay for getting the gas mixed in the bottle for you. My current suppler is the same for all basic mixes (including custom ones) although I'm not getting a CoA with the bottles.

But then convince is a big factor as well.
I was on rental and had all the mixes available. Then that dealer closed down so I went rent-free (because that's the most convenient for collection/delivery) but the rent-free didn't do 2% or 2.5% so I mixed it myself.
Then another rent-free supplier a bit further away opened up so I now get the 2% from them a couple of bottles at a time.

Pre-mix is very convenient as you just connect up the bottle.and start welding.

On site mixing is very convenient as you have every possible gas mix in stock at all times.

Cost wise, if your using less than a bottle a week probably not worth worrying about.
Or, worry about it and start filling out a spreadsheet..