Gas or gasless?

[craig8585]

Hello guys,

Sorry this is my first post but I have been having a look around here for a while and now is my time to ask the question..



I'm about to buy my first welder which I'll be using to weld car body panels mainly, along with the odd bracket etc.

I was originally looking to buy a gasless mig but am now undecided if it's worth getting a a gas one instead. Could you please advise me if the gas ones perform a lot better than the gasless?


And if anyone has chance, could you advise one that would fit the bill of welding mainly thin panels, and must be under £200 too.


Many thanks in advance!

 

[cumbriasteve]

Welcome to the forum

Does your £200 budget include the mask, gloves and gas bottle? if it does then I am afraid you have a problem unless you are really lucky and find someone selling up, plus most gas bottles are hired and not transferrable

 

[keith19]

Welcome to the forum, Craig

Your £200 budget doesn't really cover a new welder of the sort you want, unless maybe you can pick up an ex-demo model cheaply.

Is that £200 for the welder alone, because with gas bottle and deposit, regulator, and safety kit, you need to add another £150 - £200 for these extras?

If you haven't mig welded before, don't buy a 'gasless only' welder. There are some cheapies around which about fit into your £200, but they won't be any good for bodywork, especially when learning.

There's nothing wrong with eventually learning to use gasless, but much easier to learn to use a gas mig first, especially on car panel repairs. If you can afford it, look out for a machine which does both, so this gives you the best of both worlds. The Clarke 151EN is one of the lower-priced Clarke models which can do both, for instance.

A Clarke 90 Amp gas model would be able to do car panel work, but not the brackets. You need a machine with a top end output of around 150 Amps for that. Generally the advice is to get the biggest and best machine you can afford.

Take a long look around the site, read up a lot of the beginner advice threads, so you get a good idea of what is regarded as good and what is not. Don't dive into getting a machine without figuring out exactly what you want to use it for, and if it will be suitable for the conditions you will be working in.

Some guys can only work outside, for example. So if they use gas they have to rig up some protection from the wind. If you have a garage this isn't an issue.

Have fun learning; this is a great site to help with that, and great people with lots of helpful advice.

 

[craig8585]

Thank you very much for your replies


I was aiming to spend £200 for the welder alone but didn't expect the 'extras' to cost so much!


I have been looking at the Clarke 90EN gas/gasless because after reading the guides on this site, I thought I could do with one that goes below 30A for 0.8mm steel and this one goes down to 24A.

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/mig-90en-no-gas-mig-welder


I have a garage to work in but having read that a mini bottle of gas only lasts for 6mins/1.0m of welding, I think it'll end up costing a lot in gas. I haven't got the room to store a large welder or gas bottle unfortunately. It's more of a hobby than anything, hence my reluctance to spend a lot of money but I understand you get what you pay for..

 

[keith19]

The Clarke 90EN is a good choice if you are sure you won't be needing it to weld anything heavier than about 2 mm thick steel, although in gasless mode it should just about manage 3 mm. There's a review of the machine here:
http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/clarke-90.htm

As said, it is claimed that the 90EN goes down to 24A. But this is in gas welding mode; I would expect the gasless mode to be rather higher, as flux-core wire burns hotter and rather more harshly than gas-cooled wire. If you really wanted to go with the 90EN for a starter machine, you could always try it on scrap thin metal in gasless mode to see how you got on with it, while saving and looking around for a large gas bottle locally.

Personally, I looked out for a decent s/h machine on ebay and in local papers for some time, and in that time eventually managed to save enough to get a new 151EN, which only goes down to 30A, but this is quite adequate for car panel repairs. It goes up to 150A for thicker chassis and brackets and occasional projects, and all the little jobs you get asked to do once folks know you have a welder.

I can use the gasless mode on bodywork down to around 0.8 mm, but that is with a lot of practice, using the thin metal technique, and sometimes using heat sinks underneath the metal being welded. So working with gasless on bodywork is possible, but not something I would advise for anyone starting out, if they can avoid it.

Gas in small halfords etc bottles is pretty useless. As you say, about 6 mins from the argon mix bottles if you're lucky. The CO2 ones last a bit longer, but the arc is a bit more harsh to learn with on thin panels.
The business of finding a decently-priced large bottle of gas, making the deposit on the cylinder, and sometimes paying for delivery, is one of the most expensive parts of starting the mig welding process.

Give it plenty of thought before buying, remember you eventually always feel you would like a more powerful machine than the one you've got already. I guess that is human nature.

 

[craig8585]

Keith, your advice is brilliant, thank you very much fot taking the time to reply.

I'm going to have a little think about it today and hopefully reach a decision tonight so I can order one up! The more I think about it the more I think that i won't really need to weld anything thicker than 2.0mm. It'd be nice to get a bit more penetration than 2.0mm occasionally on the odd bracket here and there, but 2.0mm should be sufficient to hold most things that I will encounter. If I do find I need something thicker welding I'll have to do what I normally do and take it to my local welders who do a perfect job fairly cheaply.

One other question I have.. how long (in weld length) should a 0.45kg reel of gasless wire last?

Thanks again!

 

[stuvy]

have a read on the forum for welding gas in your area as it can be had cheaper in different areas. Welcome to the forum too buddy, keep an eye on the for sale section as there are occasional welders that come up for sale

 

[Wedg1e]

Keep an eye out for a pub-sized CO2 bottle, they can be refilled quite cheaply if you know whom to ask (they usually won't admit it over the phone) and pay cash.
Pub bottles are often around a fiver and last time I had a refill it was £8. That would typically last me a year, and I have been known to fabricate 2m square doors.

A full-face helmet is better than a hand-held shield; gloves are essential, fireproof overalls not expensive but leather jacket even better, especially once the grinder sparks start flying.

 

[philsmin]

I used a clarke 90EN for many years and couldn't really fault it, the only thing I would find is it would trip out on hot days with prolonged use. I fitted a fan in the end and that solved my problem.

Tbh I would buy a good secondhand clarke that can do gas and gasless, go for a turbo model (with the fan already in). I bought a 150TE a while back for £50, just needed a new torch and liner so cost me around £100 all in.

 

[craig8585]

Did you use in gasless form Phil and get good results?

I'm now thinking of buying the 90EN gasless but also a reel of normal wire, and the gas. That way, for roughly the same price as the PRO90 I can use either method..


Are there any advantages of having the Pro90 over the 90EN for gas welding?

Pro90
90EN Gasless

 

[keith19]

"Are there any advantages of having the Pro90 over the 90EN for gas welding?"

Only that the Pro90 comes with a gas regulator and pipe so you can start with gas at once. But I believe the regulator is only for the smaller expensive type of gas bottles, not the proper grown-up affair with dials on. So if you want a full size regulator you will still have to pay for one separately.

As Wedgie says, keep an eye out for a pub CO2 bottle, which can be one cheap way of gas welding if its only hobby use. But be careful, there are at least two types of pub CO2 gas, and only one, pure CO2, is good for welding. The other has some additive gas I can't remember at the moment, but it makes for bad welds.

By the way, settle on what gas you are going to use before getting the reg; because argon mix and CO2 regulators are both different, although the price of each is similar. See here:
http://www.weldequip.com/argonmix-conversion-kit.htm
and here:
http://www.weldequip.com/co2-conversion-kit.htm

 

[craig8585]

Thanks again Keith for sharing your font of knowledge again!


Ok.. so the Pro 90 comes with the kit to use the small bottles, but if I go for gas I'd prefer to get the pub bottle setup as it's so much cheaper in the long run. So the small bottle regulator is of no real long term use.

The 90EN is ready to go for gasless (which could be useful for outdoor jobs) and if I buy a bottle, regulator and wire, it will be ready to go for gas welding too.
Plus, the 90EN is cheaper than the Pro 90 to buy. I'll do that then so I have the option for both types of welding at a reasonable price.

As for the regulator.. I'll start on CO2 and see how it goes!


Thank you again to everybody for your input on his thread. It's heped me a lot and I'm sure I'll be back here soon for more advice!

 

[bigtaloola]

why not buy a duel welder the en that will do both gas and no gas ?
just a thought
Dave

 

[KemppiFrog]

I was using a friends pub gas bottles. Suddenly the welds went ti++s up. Seems the mix had added nitrogen to give the beer more head. Not usefull for welding....
KF