fustration!

[mk1joe]

after about an hour of practecing today i fell into majour fustration after my gass bottle went empty, it was the first time i used it and it ran out within about 30 minits of welding, its one of the small co2/argon bottles from machine mart, ive used one before and it lasted much longer. is there a standard amount of time these should last?

my practice peice went quite well (while it lasted) but when i tried on my car it all went to pot, it seems to act differently when im trying to weld on the car or even over seems

thanks for the help
joe

 

[Omniata]

If it was one of the "disposeable" bottles, only a few minutes of welding...

I've used the 600g CO2 ones before and they've frozen


Try getting either a pub type cylinder or a larger rent/rent free CO2/Argon mix...

 

[rtbcomp]

after about an hour of practecing today i fell into majour fustration after my gass bottle went empty, it was the first time i used it and it ran out within about 30 minits of welding, its one of the small co2/argon bottles from machine mart, ive used one before and it lasted much longer. is there a standard amount of time these should last?

......
joe

Was the first one you used CO2/Argon mix or pure CO2. If it was just CO2 it will last longer because they contain liquid CO2, whereas the mix ones are compressed gas.

 

[mk1joe]

yep, you got that right, the first one was co2. thanks for the snappy responses, i will never buy one of those again, what a waste!

can anyone recomend the best place to buy one of the big "upright" bottles?
thanks

 

[cumbriasteve]

Do a local google for an independant supplier, or a supplier to the bar trade for a pub bottle of Co2... I got mine for £13 a year rent and £11 each time it needs refilled....which for the occasional car welding probably won't be more than once a year if that

 

[schnappi]

I once made the mistake of buying 2 disposable CO2/Argon mix cylinders. What a total waste of cash, got about 5 mins welding time out of them (if that) at a cost of about £30!! I was really upset about it as it pushed the cost of the job up way more than I'd anticipated.

In desperation to get the job finished (and not wanting to pour more money down the drain) I bought some SIP flux-cored wire from Halfords (even though my welder is the wrong polarity for it) and TBH, I've never looked back!

Don't get me wrong, flux-cored is messy, runs hotter and it is more difficult to see whilst you're welding but for me (and my particular pattern of usage) the pros far outweigh the cons. No expensive gas / bottle rental, weld anywhere outdoors or indoors with the garage door open on a windy day, welding gear is easier to transport and store without lugging a big gas bottle around. A quick going over with a wire brush and the welds are good and tidy.

Sure, the wire is a lot more expensive and if you were restoring an entire vehicle then you'd be much better off with a large gas bottle. For welding on the odd panel every now and then or doing a bit of patching the flux-cored seems to be a good option to me that is too readily overlooked.

Case in point, 2 weeks ago I replaced a full outer sill on a 4 door car. I spent £15 on about 0.5kg of flux cored wire. The job went fine, not as nice as with gas, but the job's still a good one and I've still got plenty of wire left.

Unless you're planning on doing a fair bit of welding quite regularly then give a bit of flux-cored a go, you might hate it (and probably will ) but you might be pleasantly surprised (like I was!).

 

[gavuk]

I'm with Steve ,use co2 £15 for a refill,the cylinder lasts ages and is a halfway house between argonmix being the easiest/nicest and flux cored being the most difficult..for car work where the weld is ground away or hidden i see no problem using co2,some members even use co2 extinguishers as a gas bottle

 

[mk1joe]

gasless welding was actualy going to be my next post, my welder came with a reel of it so thats what im going to try next although i have actualy been advised against it by a few people.

im not too bothered about apperiance as long as the weld is strong enough as im going to grind it flat anyway. i cant really see any other negative points for flux wire.
thanks.

 

[schnappi]

Biggest problem is that the flux deposits don't conduct when they're cold meaning that you have to give them a quick dusting off with a small wire brush (or often I just give it a quick rub over with my glove). This isn't as much of a problem as it sounds as the flux deposits are not a problem whilst they're still reasonably hot.

For example, when stitch welding I'd lay down my initial tacks until I'm down to about 1 tack every inch. You can do this fine, no problem.

I'd then weld between the tacks using short runs. Trouble is, the flux deposits have cooled by that point and trying to start near a tack results in failure to strike an arc. So you have two choices, start between the tacks and stitch weld until you're between the next set of tacks or wire brush (or rub your glove over) the initial tacks and then you can start on a tack and weld to the next tack.

After running an inch of weld, it's a good idea to move to another area away from where you've just been welding and do another inch there. This minimises distortion (especially important with flux cored because the CO2 isn't there to help keep things cool). This is all fine until you return to the first run where you may find you struggle to strike an arc due to the cold flux deposits. A quick brush / wipe over and you're welding again.

The stitch welding itself works just fine as when you're pulsing the trigger the previous stitch doesn't have time to go cold so the flux isn't a problem as you can weld through it just fine.

It sounds like a hassle but it really isn't anywhere near as bad as it sounds once you remember that hot flux is fine and cold flux isn't.

Once you're all done you will find there's a bit more spatter but this scrubs off quickly with a wire brush leaving quite neat looking welds.

Best thing is to get the flux cored into the welder and have a play with it (obviously try it on scrap!). I realise that it isn't for everyone and I wouldn't use flux cored if I was going to spend a year or two restoring a classic but for a small amount of welding now and again (such as keeping an old family car on the road) it really isn't as bad as it's made out to be. It's obviously not as nice or as easy as welding using a shielding gas. That said, I found welding with small disposable gas bottles useless due to lack of gas flow and actually find welding with flux cored easier. YMMV.

 

[keith19]

Couple of good posts on the highs and lows and techniques of gasless there, Schnappi.

I've been using gasless on thicker (1.6 - 2 mm plus) metal quite successfully, and starting to get better on thinner stuff now. It's fine when the work is up in front of you, but for me a bit difficult to see properly underneath a vehicle, with the smoke and all. It's encouraging to hear you've used it for car patching with decent success.

I think gasless tends to get maligned because people don't/won't spend enough time getting used to using it. It seems - to me at any rate - much more like lightweight arc welding than mig. I used to arc weld quite a bit years ago, so gasless didn't seem too different to that. Thanks for the posts.

 

[mk1joe]

hello, i had a practice with flux welding today and it was soo easy, the welds went on incredabily well and it always acts the same but i dont think the welds are as good, they come out very flat and dont flow as well, but hopefully this wont matter after the surface is ground back. would doing anything different create a better looking/more full weld?
thanks
joe

 

[mk1joe]

second thoughts, had another go with the gasless today and now ive completely changed my tune, it was all crispy and trying to weld over a seem was useless, it was either to thin or blew holes. anyway, think il try the co2 again looking at it now it seems easier.