Fuel cost comparison.

[brewdexta]

Just looking at home heating costs. We were on LPG and paying through the nose, I had a chat with Northern Gas and they quoted me about 25K to put in natural gas, If I managed to talk a couple of neighbours to sign up for gas too, this involved digging across a road and a couple of 100m of pipe etc. etc.

So I spent a shed loads on a new boiler room to put in a pellet boiler, I had been quoted a 20K grant over 7 years. But by the time I built the boiler room this had reduced to 7k which didn't cover much.

At the time, pellets were more expensive than natural gas and oil, but cheaper than LPG.

Then one day, a Northern Gas van appeared in the field next to me, about 40m away. I had a chat with the engineer and he was moving an existing gas pipe as it had been exposed by heavy rain. Back on the phone to Northern Gas, they denied the pipe existed. After a bit of banter like " well, one of your engineers has a big yellow pipe in his hand, if its not gas what is it", they sent out a surveyor.

So it turns out that because the pipe had not been "digitised" it didn't exist, so I could have had natural gas year ago for the princely sum of 3k if I had spotted the pipe earlier.

So for the last 2 years I've had natural gas feeding a back up boiler, and the pellet boiler as primary. I've had the pellet boiler for 3 or 4 years now. If I use the gas boiler I have to give some of the subsidy for the pellet boiler back so I only use the gas boiler if the pellet boiler is broken or the pellet delivery can't get up the hill due to snow.

Up until now I have been paying a premium for pellets as the subsidy I get only paid for about 25% of the installation so I don't count it as subsidising the fuel cost, but with the latest price hike in gas and oil, I thought I would see what its like now.

I'm paying 29.8p per kg for pellets in bulk. Each kg has 4.9kWh potential
Heating oil is about 56p per litre and has 10.35kWh energy potential
Natural gas is currently around 3.8p per kWh
LPG is 7.08kWh per litre and about 67p per litre

So normalising on price per kWh, if my maths and the sources of the figures are correct, in some cases there are additional standing charges, 20p per day for electricity for example.

Pellets 6p per kWh
Heating oil 5.4p per kWh
Natural gas 3.8p per kWh
LPG is 9.4p per kWh
Coal is 2.4p per kWh (September 2021 figure, may be higher now)
Electricity 15p per kWh

So I'm better off than I was on LPG but still paying a large premium over natural gas. Both the pellet and the gas boiler have similar efficiencies and both modulate so I don't need to take that into account.

I think I have 3 years of subsidy left, by that time I wonder if gas will be higher or lower than pellets per kWh.

Then I looked at the carbon footprint, and gave up. Pellets that come from wood byproducts like shavings, like the German ones I buy, are pretty good, the timber comes from managed forests and your not bulldozing primary forest, unlike the wood chip for Drax power station in their early days. Carbon footprint of oil and gas never includes the production and transport overhead. some wood pellets do, but not all. So not easy to compare one with another. If you look at the European pellet council figures, they sound great. But I bet the same can be said if I go to the equivalent oil/gas/coal councils

So I went to look for a reputable study, here's one that seems good, the difference are quite striking but you need to check the foot notes. The worst case wood pellet, this is gas dried wet wood CO2 lifecycle emission is 1820kg of CO2 per MWh, whereas grid electricity is 5180kg, natural gas, 4540kg, oil 6280kg and hard coal 8280kg. If made from already dried wood byproducts then pellets goes down to 300Kg per MWh (but doesn't include transport so probably a little bit more.)

This makes me feel a bit better in paying a bit of a premium over natural gas until I think that I could probably buy a decent TIG with the money I could save

 

[Blobber]

Just looking at home heating costs. We were on LPG and paying through the nose, I had a chat with Northern Gas and they quoted me about 25K to put in natural gas, If I managed to talk a couple of neighbours to sign up for gas too, this involved digging across a road and a couple of 100m of pipe etc. etc.

So I spent a shed loads on a new boiler room to put in a pellet boiler, I had been quoted a 20K grant over 7 years. But by the time I built the boiler room this had reduced to 7k which didn't cover much.

At the time, pellets were more expensive than natural gas and oil, but cheaper than LPG.

Then one day, a Northern Gas van appeared in the field next to me, about 40m away. I had a chat with the engineer and he was moving an existing gas pipe as it had been exposed by heavy rain. Back on the phone to Northern Gas, they denied the pipe existed. After a bit of banter like " well, one of your engineers has a big yellow pipe in his hand, if its not gas what is it", they sent out a surveyor.

So it turns out that because the pipe had not been "digitised" it didn't exist, so I could have had natural gas year ago for the princely sum of 3k if I had spotted the pipe earlier.

So for the last 2 years I've had natural gas feeding a back up boiler, and the pellet boiler as primary. I've had the pellet boiler for 3 or 4 years now. If I use the gas boiler I have to give some of the subsidy for the pellet boiler back so I only use the gas boiler if the pellet boiler is broken or the pellet delivery can't get up the hill due to snow.

Up until now I have been paying a premium for pellets as the subsidy I get only paid for about 25% of the installation so I don't count it as subsidising the fuel cost, but with the latest price hike in gas and oil, I thought I would see what its like now.

I'm paying 29.8p per kg for pellets in bulk. Each kg has 4.9kWh potential
Heating oil is about 56p per litre and has 10.35kWh energy potential
Natural gas is currently around 3.8p per kWh
LPG is 7.08kWh per litre and about 67p per litre

So normalising on price per kWh, if my maths and the sources of the figures are correct, in some cases there are additional standing charges, 20p per day for electricity for example.

Pellets 6p per kWh
Heating oil 5.4p per kWh
Natural gas 3.8p per kWh
LPG is 9.4p per kWh
Coal is 2.4p per kWh (September 2021 figure, may be higher now)
Electricity 15p per kWh

So I'm better off than I was on LPG but still paying a large premium over natural gas. Both the pellet and the gas boiler have similar efficiencies and both modulate so I don't need to take that into account.

I think I have 3 years of subsidy left, by that time I wonder if gas will be higher or lower than pellets per kWh.

Then I looked at the carbon footprint, and gave up. Pellets that come from wood byproducts like shavings, like the German ones I buy, are pretty good, the timber comes from managed forests and your not bulldozing primary forest, unlike the wood chip for Drax power station in their early days. Carbon footprint of oil and gas never includes the production and transport overhead. some wood pellets do, but not all. So not easy to compare one with another. If you look at the European pellet council figures, they sound great. But I bet the same can be said if I go to the equivalent oil/gas/coal councils

So I went to look for a reputable study, here's one that seems good, the difference are quite striking but you need to check the foot notes. The worst case wood pellet, this is gas dried wet wood CO2 lifecycle emission is 1820kg of CO2 per MWh, whereas grid electricity is 5180kg, natural gas, 4540kg, oil 6280kg and hard coal 8280kg. If made from already dried wood byproducts then pellets goes down to 300Kg per MWh (but doesn't include transport so probably a little bit more.)

This makes me feel a bit better in paying a bit of a premium over natural gas until I think that I could probably buy a decent TIG with the money I could save

Good on you for having the time and ability to find out all the facts and figures but as far as im concerned its all just smoke and mirrors, how can it possibly be low carbon to ship pellets from Germany? its a bit like importing coal when we plenty here! just because companies can buy loads of agricultural land with taxpayer funded subsidies to turn into forests of non-native fast growing trees to offset carbon doesnt make them carbon neutral in my mind

 

[8ob]

Good on you for having the time and ability to find out all the facts and figures but as far as im concerned its all just smoke and mirrors, how can it possibly be low carbon to ship pellets from Germany? its a bit like importing coal when we plenty here! just because companies can buy loads of agricultural land with taxpayer funded subsidies to turn into forests of non-native fast growing trees to offset carbon doesnt make them carbon neutral in my mind

Its all a bit of a joke, woodlands here are raped of thousands of tons of timber, a lot of it is then chipped and transported/shipped to europe where its either used as biomass (burned), made into pellets or chipboard and then transported/shipped back here.

Bob

 

[brewdexta]

We import coal, gas and oil too. That doesn't just appear, it needs extracting and shipping That's why I looked for figures with production and transport included. It's also why there's a difference in the carbon footprint of pellets from wet wood and from already dry sources.

I don't disagree that this could be done better, shipping stuff unnecessarily around the world and back etc. But that applies to lots of stuff, not just fuel.

Fuel from managed woodland is a lot better than extracting fossil fuel no matter which way you look at it. I must admit that "carbon neutral" is stretching the facts a bit

 

[Blobber]

Its all a bit of a joke, woodlands here are raped of thousands of tons of timber, a lot of it is then chipped and transported/shipped to europe where its either used as biomass (burned), made into pellets or chipboard and then transported/shipped back here.

Bob

I think it's now a case of the lunatics running the asylum with all this stuff!

 

[8ob]

I think it's now a case of the lunatics running the asylum with all this stuff!

It applies to any and every scheme the powers that be get involved in that use the words subsidies,incentives and set aside. All guaranteed line the pockets of the elite, be unfit for purpose and end up running at a huge loss which will ultimately fall on the shoulders of us tax paying oikes

Bob

 

[slim_boy_fat]

143.7p per litre today at the nearest Asda store for E10 = £52 for half a tank according to the fuel gauge

Road Fund Duty reminder, due at the end of the month = £340! My fault for having a big car..... Wouldn't mind if the roads were in a good state, but that's not a discussion for this thread.

 

[500e]

Ohhh go on

 

[ronan]

It applies to any and every scheme the powers that be get involved in that use the words subsidies,incentives and set aside. All guaranteed line the pockets of the elite, be unfit for purpose and end up running at a huge loss which will ultimately fall on the shoulders of us tax paying oikes

Bob

100%, most of this stuff the various governments are signing up to are horse feathers. Plenty of very dubious characters involved in "Investing" in green renewable energy and all that. Of course if you are a public figure, and speak out against any of it, you are cancelled. Case in point was David Bellamy, he said global warming was down to natural cycles and not man made, result ? Cancelled, never seen on telly again.

 

[R Kraft]

Most troubling is that each year of biomass used, can take many years to grow back.
Using something at a greater than recovery rate, is by definition not sustainable.

 

[8ob]

Most troubling is that each year of biomass used, can take many years to grow back.
Using something at a greater than recovery rate, is by definition not sustainable.

A lot of the replanting fails and is very poorly managed, in recent years the eco freaks seemed to have dropped the words "sustainable" and " carbon neutral" and use the term "renewables",its a bit nearer the truth.

Bob

 

[brewdexta]

Have you not got a wood chipper? a sound investment if you have a pellet stove but you need the correct blades to chip it small enough.

You need low moisture content compressed pellets in pellet boilers, not chips. If I had wood chip boiler then I could, but wood pellet boilers tend to be big, 30kW big, far too big and spendy for my place.

 

[brewdexta]

Most troubling is that each year of biomass used, can take many years to grow back.
Using something at a greater than recovery rate, is by definition not sustainable.

It depends where you get your pellets from. I buy Mayr-Melnhof Holz pellets. They are a byproduct of the their building timber business. They make everything from sawn timber to laminated construction beams. The bark is used in their own biomass boilers to kiln dry their timber and their timber is from managed forests.

However, not all biomass is like this. Drax power station in the UK used biomass from primary US forests, completely unmanaged. They have now changed supplier but I'm not convinced its it's much better than it was.

Where there is an opportunity to make cash, somebody without scruples will take advantage, this behaviour is not reserved just for biomass. However the Koch brothers (well, brother, one died recently) have a nice multi million dollar fund to make sure that greener tech is discredited, fossil fuel is promoted and dirt is dug up on people who threaten their fossil fuel empire. Their political contacts are everywhere I believe the organisation is called the Kochtopus

 

[Gareth J]

That's why I said I'm not comparing ICE/EV costs, just fuel. EV suits my wife as she has about a 110 mile round trip commute a couple of times a week. No tools or stores to move. If there was a charger at her destination then a 220 round trip would be feasible without stopping. Early days, it will power density and battery life will improve and capitsl costs come down.

Out of curiosity, if you don't mind me asking, have you worked out a rough lifetime cost per mile for the EV/s you have/had? As I understand it, for new cars, they're holding value quite well so compared to a conventional ICE car they might fare quite well in the early years? Of course I doubt they can complete with bangernomics or indeed appreciating classics but that's not really a fair comparison.

 

[slim_boy_fat]

Ohhh go on

No, I'm being good and resisting..... .

 

[brewdexta]

Out of curiosity, if you don't mind me asking, have you worked out a rough lifetime cost per mile for the EV/s you have/had? As I understand it, for new cars, they're holding value quite well so compared to a conventional ICE car they might fare quite well in the early years? Of course I doubt they can complete with bangernomics or indeed appreciating classics but that's not really a fair comparison.

No, I've not - yet However the Leaf is only marginally more expensive on a lease than an equivalent size/comfort/performance ICE car. Service and fuel costs are lower, tyres will be about the same. So I don't think there would be much in it.

If you look at a Nissan Juke versus a Nissan Leaf, its not exactly equivalent, the leaf is much faster to the legal limit and is an automatic, but it should give an idea.

Nissan Juke DIG-T 114 MANUAL N-CONNECTA 10,000 mile per annum 0% 24 month term £279 optional final payment £12,143.36 customer deposit £3,960.64
Nissan Leaf 150kWH 150ps Accenta, 10,000 mile per annum 0% 24 month term £281 optional final payment £13,750 customer deposit £4,951. This comes with a 2.5K government grant.

So not too far apart in terms of capital costs.

From a running costs perspective, we haven't changed brake pads in any of the Leaf's we have had, regenerative braking helps here, however we have only had them 2 years before swapping them as the dealers keep making us offers we can't refuse.

I have no idea what the service costs will be for a Juke, but I'm guessing an annual fluid service will be £100 and probably need some pads say £300 over the above 2 years term.
The Leaf does have an annual service, I think the last one was about £60, but I would have to ask the missus to confirm - so say £120.

Lets assume the 20,000 mile allowance for the lease is used up.

Parker's say the latest Juke does about 48mpg, that's 416 gallon or 1894 litres. At current average petrol prices that's 146.5p per litre = £2744
For the EV, according to Pod Point who installed our home charger, its £9.20 for 200 miles range. We get it a bit cheaper because of the tariff we are on but we will use this figure, for 20K miles it works out to £940.

So the costs are very similar.

Juke - 2 year costs (monthly and deposit) plus service plus fuel £6696 + £3,960 + £300 + £2744 = £13,730
Leaf - 2 year costs (monthly and deposit) plus service plus fuel £6744 + £4,951 + £120 + £920= £12,735

Ok, the Leaf has a 2.5K grant, but if you extend the lease for a couple more years then the difference in fuel and servicing would swallow that too.

Also the Leaf is 0-60 in about 7.9 seconds compared to 10.7 on the Juke, more if you add the DCT auto box, the auto box also up the Juke's price a bit too.

Its a bit of a back of a fag packet analysis but good enough I think.

EDIT I only did the fuel costs for 10k miles, not 2 x 10K for the 2 year lease, now edited. I've not included road fund license (0 for Leaf, £155 for Juke) or Insurance, I think the insurance is a bit dearer on the Leaf so probably similar if you combine the two.
EDIT 2 - found some typical Nissan service costs, however you can buy fixed price service deals and dealers vary.

Minor Service is £149 EV / £199 Petrol / £219 Diesel.
Major Service is £199 EV / £269 Petrol / £319 Diesel.

 

[Gareth J]

No, I've not - yet However the Leaf is only marginally more expensive on a lease than an equivalent size/comfort/performance ICE car. Service and fuel costs are lower, tyres will be about the same. So I don't think there would be much in it.

If you look at a Nissan Juke versus a Nissan Leaf, its not exactly equivalent, the leaf is much faster to the legal limit and is an automatic, but it should give an idea.

Nissan Juke DIG-T 114 MANUAL N-CONNECTA 10,000 mile per annum 0% 24 month term £279 optional final payment £12,143.36 customer deposit £3,960.64
Nissan Leaf 150kWH 150ps Accenta, 10,000 mile per annum 0% 24 month term £281 optional final payment £13,750 customer deposit £4,951. This comes with a 2.5K government grant.

So not too far apart in terms of capital costs.

From a running costs perspective, we haven't changed brake pads in any of the Leaf's we have had, regenerative braking helps here, however we have only had them 2 years before swapping them as the dealers keep making us offers we can't refuse.

I have no idea what the service costs will be for a Juke, but I'm guessing an annual fluid service will be £100 and probably need some pads say £300 over the above 2 years term.
The Leaf does have an annual service, I think the last one was about £60, but I would have to ask the missus to confirm - so say £120.

Lets assume the 20,000 mile allowance for the lease is used up.

Parker's say the latest Juke does about 48mpg, that's 416 gallon or 1894 litres. At current average petrol prices that's 146.5p per litre = £2744
For the EV, according to Pod Point who installed our home charger, its £9.20 for 200 miles range. We get it a bit cheaper because of the tariff we are on but we will use this figure, for 20K miles it works out to £940.

So the costs are very similar.

Juke - 2 year costs (monthly and deposit) plus service plus fuel £6696 + £3,960 + £300 + £2744 = £13,730
Leaf - 2 year costs (monthly and deposit) plus service plus fuel £6744 + £4,951 + £120 + £920= £12,735

Ok, the Leaf has a 2.5K grant, but if you extend the lease for a couple more years then the difference in fuel and servicing would swallow that too.

Also the Leaf is 0-60 in about 7.9 seconds compared to 10.7 on the Juke, more if you add the DCT auto box, the auto box also up the Juke's price a bit too.

Its a bit of a back of a fag packet analysis but good enough I think.

EDIT I only did the fuel costs for 10k miles, not 2 x 10K for the 2 year lease, now edited. I've not included road fund license (0 for Leaf, £155 for Juke) or Insurance, I think the insurance is a bit dearer on the Leaf so probably similar if you combine the two.
EDIT 2 - found some typical Nissan service costs, however you can buy fixed price service deals and dealers vary.

Minor Service is £149 EV / £199 Petrol / £219 Diesel.
Major Service is £199 EV / £269 Petrol / £319 Diesel.

That's brilliant, thanks. Seems like there's not a great deal in it. That your estimate puts the govnt grant bang on the line between making it cost beneficial/not suggests it's a pretty sensible estimate.

Either way though, ~30p per mile for a new car is no worse than I'd imagined. I guess the figures really hinge around how many miles are actually done too.

 

[octo0072000]

replacement battery for a leaf is about £4000 fitted

 

[brewdexta]

replacement battery for a leaf is about £4000 fitted

I think its more like 8k for the 40kWh.

Warranty is 96 months or 100K miles. Total failure is rare but they do degrade, the warranty includes allowable degradation, I believe they have to keep at least 75% charge. You can buy second hand batteries, usually around 80% capacity of new for a lot less.

Sometimes only a few modules have failed, so you can get them replaced.

I suppose this is equivalent to getting a new ICE engine fitted by a stealer In both cases you could get aftermarket components if warranty is no longer an issue and save cash.

I've just come back from the Nissan dealership, we swapped out our 40kWh leaf for the 62kWh version. It was supposed to be here about 4 weeks ago, but like most stuff now, anything with processors takes longer. The lead times for IT equipment at work has gone from 4 weeks to approaching 6 months in some cases. This is our 4th Leaf, the first was a base model with the 30kWh battery to try out an EV. We liked it so upgraded to a 40kWh once with all the toys after a year or so as the dealer made a good offer. Then just over a year later, they offered us a cheaper deal on the same model. Then 2 years later they offered us the 62kWh version for less than we were paying for the 40kWh with the same trim so couldn't say no.

This will probably be out last Leaf, at least the last new one. Once there's a bit more of a selection of EVs, we will get rid of both the Ford Ranger and the Leaf and go down to one car, probably in 2 years time. This would be something EV, a bit more spacious, 4WD. and preferably about 300 miles range. Given we are remote, if I find the shock of going to one car an issue, I may buy a cheap second hand EV for pootling about in, something with 50 miles range or even less would do.

So far the only thing that's failed was the charger on the first Leaf. That went back to the factory so they could diagnose the problem so it wouldn't happen again as it was the first time they has seen the issue. We got a loaner for a week. Since then, zero has gone wrong with the cars in the time we've had them.

 

[octo0072000]

I think its more like 8k for the 40kWh.

Warranty is 96 months or 100K miles. Total failure is rare but they do degrade, the warranty includes allowable degradation, I believe they have to keep at least 75% charge. You can buy second hand batteries, usually around 80% capacity of new for a lot less.

Sometimes only a few modules have failed, so you can get them replaced.

I suppose this is equivalent to getting a new ICE engine fitted by a stealer In both cases you could get aftermarket components if warranty is no longer an issue and save cash.

I've just come back from the Nissan dealership, we swapped out our 40kWh leaf for the 62kWh version. It was supposed to be here about 4 weeks ago, but like most stuff now, anything with processors takes longer. The lead times for IT equipment at work has gone from 4 weeks to approaching 6 months in some cases. This is our 4th Leaf, the first was a base model with the 30kWh battery to try out an EV. We liked it so upgraded to a 40kWh once with all the toys after a year or so as the dealer made a good offer. Then just over a year later, they offered us a cheaper deal on the same model. Then 2 years later they offered us the 62kWh version for less than we were paying for the 40kWh with the same trim so couldn't say no.

This will probably be out last Leaf, at least the last new one. Once there's a bit more of a selection of EVs, we will get rid of both the Ford Ranger and the Leaf and go down to one car, probably in 2 years time. This would be something EV, a bit more spacious, 4WD. and preferably about 300 miles range. Given we are remote, if I find the shock of going to one car an issue, I may buy a cheap second hand EV for pootling about in, something with 50 miles range or even less would do.

So far the only thing that's failed was the charger on the first Leaf. That went back to the factory so they could diagnose the problem so it wouldn't happen again as it was the first time they has seen the issue. We got a loaner for a week. Since then, zero has gone wrong with the cars in the time we've had them.

think that price was for 28 Kw the first ones