For the mechs out there Weird one

[normspanners]

How bout this for weird got called out boxing day to an astra with z22se engine, not one of vaux finest to say the least.
Lady said car had major electrical fault on motorway abs airbags lights on power steering stopped etc but running OK, she stopped at the services but it would not restart, I diagnosed alternator or its wiring, over the phone. I got to the services car was parked in a bay like it WAS driven there. I though I'll jump it n drive it on the trailer, it just cranked over but sounded weird poss like the cam chain had gone, but there was thousands in that services in and out blowing horns etc etc so winched it on and got from there !.
Got it back and put the charger on it n left it to charge for the day, the next day I tried to start it, just spinning over NO compression, tried comp check nothing. So took off the cam cover and checked the chain etc, timing was spot on. Water level perfect oil was at bottom of the stick but cams were wet with oil. Tried cyl leakage check could not get enough flow ! put a squirt of oil in each pot still nothing. Then made an adapter to put full airline flow down the bores coming out of everywhere exhaust, inlet, block etc, but it did try to crank engine when in no1. So tried another comp check with the butterfly held open, no comp but the engine started sqeaking ! when cranked for along time I wondered about the low oil so topped it up with1.5lts but put a capfull down each bore to try n seal everything, I put it back together and was expecting the plugs to oil up, turned the key and it fired n ran straight away , oil light out , sounded fine!! on all four. Loads of smoke from the oil down bores The mad thing is it's charging, 13v, a little low but enough to run everything. I drove it and it drives fine.
Went out this morning it started first compression no probs, qiuet and sounds good, well for a z22se!.

 

[Pete.]

Tell her to sell it quick - to someone she doesn't like

 

[normspanners]

Yep Thats exactlly what I said this morning!!

 

[stuvy]

Tell her to sell it quick - to someone she doesn't like

ebay it

 

[jonjoe]

so what was wrong with it then

 

[wheresmejumper]

has it an oil level sensor

 

[normspanners]

Did some interogating of the owner it has had a S/H engine fitted a few mths ago by her brother in law, so had a closer look, one problem I found today is the fuel pressure reg vacuum hose was connected to a wrong non vacuum connector, so the fuel pressure will be higher, also the managment light has been on since it was fitted so it's been in default setting I guess, putting those two together I think it was therefore injecting too much fuel and that was washing the bores, and poss diluting the sump oil , the squeak sounded like a two stroke that had partially seized, so I THINK with the oil diluted AND it injecting too much fuel there was limited lubrication to the bores but enough to keep the crank OK. When I threw oil down the plug holes it lubricated the semi seized rings and gave it enough compression to fire, after that the heat n movement and with some fresh oil in the sump was enough to free everything. The badly sealing valves could also have been sooted up valve stems (also because of the overfueling) not allowing the valves to close fully (as per the old rover T series) and by putting a full pressure air flow , it slammed them shut. The charging I hav'nt checked out as yet because I don't know how much she wants/expects to spend

 

[normspanners]

has it an oil level sensor

No oil level sensor, even if it did it would'nt effect the compression, it would MAYBE only kill the ignition

 

[wheresmejumper]

i have no experience with these,buti was looking at each problem individually,as google says some have sensors in the sump.
couldve cut fuel or spark?

i wouldnt have thought that overfuelling or diluted oil would register zero compression

 

[Chee]

Hi norm, I'm assuming when u used compressed air down number 1 bore, it was at tdc with both valves closed? You posted the air was leaking from block, so does that not appear to be the case now?? It's a bit of a strange one!

 

[normspanners]

i have no experience with these,buti was looking at each problem individually,as google says some have sensors in the sump.
couldve cut fuel or spark?

Yeh but it was still running when she drove it to the services so the oil level in the sump would have been lower then increased as it ran back to the sump ! after she shut it off

 

[normspanners]

i wouldnt have thought that overfuelling or diluted oil would register zero compression

But if it had semi seized as per a racing two stroke used to when the ambient temp changed ? I've had few thats JUST dragged the side of the piston over the rings then freed off once re started ( maybe)?

 

[normspanners]

Thanks everyone for looking n helpin has driven me mad for acouple of days

Hi norm, I'm assuming when u used compressed air down number 1 bore, it was at tdc with both valves closed? You posted the air was leaking from block, so does that not appear to be the case now?? It's a bit of a strange one!

YEH tdc firing, in 5th hand brake on, had the cam cover off so was no problem to be sure, did each one in turn and no1 was the only one that the air tried to crank the engine, (but with full flow pressure and NOT with the cylinder leakage meter) when I saw the engine pull over tdc thats when I tried the compression tester again it still didnt show much if any but thats when I heard the squeak coz it was cranked for longer and I pressumed the slight extra pressure was making the rings rub?
Hav'nt tried again coz it runs ! and now don't want to waste my time incase shes gonna scrap it !

 

[wheresmejumper]

Yeh but it was still running when she drove it to the services so the oil level in the sump would have been lower then increased as it ran back to the sump ! after she shut it off

low oil could have engaged limp mode.re-set by you back in the garage?
or possibly an oil blockage-overcome with the blast of air....or maybe low/zero oil to a timing chain tensioner...all eduguessing as im not familiar

 

[normspanners]

low oil could have engaged limp mode.re-set by you back in the garage?
or possibly an oil blockage-overcome with the blast of air....or maybe low/zero oil to a timing chain tensioner...all eduguessing as im not familiar

Thanks for the ideas but was already in limp mode only 'fault' was air intake temp sencer.
timing was still good and the chain was tight which I would'nt have thought would have effected the compression anyway ?
It seemed/felt, as soon as it got a sniff of compression it was away but then ran WITHOUT a miss/fart/knock/rattle except for the smoke,which was expected for the amount of oil I put down the bores.
PS forgot to say there was a lot of blowby oil in the plastic inlet tract where the rocker cover breather hose connects

 

[AndyStobbs]

Just registered as I got interested in this thread. I've been a forum lurker for a while to be honest.

Does the car have hydraulic lifters?
EDIT: Just to add to that, in respect of fuel pressure, the vacuum connector is more of a 'trimmer' typically they adjust pressure within 0.5bar of the rated regulator pressure. It would have been overfuelling at first, but the lambda sensor would pick this up in closed loop mode, STFT would go negative and the ECU would adapt to this over time by setting the LTFT negative and reducing injector duration.
Andy

 

[normspanners]

Hi Andy thanks for your input
Yes it has hyd lifts they are a short arm that sits on the valve stem with a roller to the cam and a 'hyd piston' in the head.
I totally agree re the fuel pressure apart from the fact that the cars management light had been on before this problem, and was in limp before it stopped plus the fact that the abs, anti skid, airbag , power steering and fuel gauge had acted up prior to it stopping, so maybe the ECU had defaulted to basic settings mode,and not acheived 'closed loop', PLUS the extra fuel pressure (purely mechanical) which it would not normally do, or expect it to do, and that had pushed it over the 'safe' fueling limit. Also she said she was just idling along to get the car to the services and maybe not spraying enough of the low oil level around to lubricate the cylinders??????. The only thing is as soon as I gave it a hint of compression it started. She said she now wants to find the problem and cure it i will tomorrow do a digital check on the alternator and now I cant read the ecu because it tells me there is no feed to the diag. socket !!. Maybe another clue to the ECU tits up mode????

 

[normspanners]

PS she said that the oil light did NOT come on at all during the journey, it is still working now before starting and IMMEDIATELY goes out upon firing and does not illuminate even when hot also the crank 'sounds' good, if it had been run any distance with no oil pressure, I think that would have 'cured' it finally!!

 

[AndyStobbs]

I see, the reason I asked about was lifters was I wondered if they could've 'pumped up' lifting valves off seats - have known this to happen on stripped lifters if too much oil is used when rebuilding them.
The time delay might've been sufficient for the pressure to bleed away, valves to re-seat etc.

Is it deffinitely a feed issue at diag socket, or a comm issue? Starting to sound like a BUS error - what year is the car, does it run CAN bus? Perhaps a module is going bad and shut the network down - have you got any U codes with your scanner previously?

Think you can rule out oil pressure really. As you say, it doesn't take long for that kind of problem to render an engine in need of a lot of work.
In my experience vauxhalls (certainly vectra B atleast) will still pick up oil after the oil is a litre below minimum on dipstick. Your theory of oil dilution is a bit at odds with the low oil level you found.

If you manage to get comms again, take a look at LTFT. I'm intruiged!
Good luck

 

[normspanners]

Thanks Andy
52 plate astra cabr. hair dresser, thats why she loves it ! Yeh I thought about the lifters but did turn engine over till valves where on the 'rock' for afew hrs each, that normally sorts the rover K s etc when they have 'jacked'. I havnt checked the diag socket prob yet appart from checking fuses etc, dont think its a BUS prob, too old I think, but have not checked anyfurther thats tomorrow!! the only prob I found before with my kts was air intake temp . AH !! maybe another reason for overfueling ? Took it today and tried 'snap -on' and 'launch' DTCRs both said no feed to the socket. Have spoken to the guy tonight that fitted the engine and he fitted new chain n tensioners and new battery and had to fit the loom off the original cars engine to get it to start! HUM!!, he said it was cranking with comp but would not fire. But this time it was gutless, I have heard enough engines with no comp ( my garage was the local RAC contractor for yrs ) to tell, also bourne out with the gauge on my comp tester !
I also agree re the oil level but if it was burning it (remember the blowby oil in the inlet tract) but also overfueling, maybe the oil level was just slowly dropping but getting thinner and just running off the bores AH! the pressure also would be lower due to the less viscous fluid and therefore not spraying out of the rods as much. point. the latter engines have been modded to block mounted bore sprayers !
ANY IDEAS coz my brains turning into a's