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gordon stephenson
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I like fan on demand, My EWM Pico mig has it, Fan run at a very low rate all the time but is inaudible, Never had it cut in full blast yet with my light hobby use, It runs at full speed for a couple of seconds when switched on as part of the test function, I think it would be quite a simple cheap mod to most machines,
Simon-
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Good. Imo
Machine is virtually silent for the most part! Less irritation to user.
Less dirt ingress into circuitry. Possible Longer component life
Fan runs proportionally to amount of current been used. Often on low current draws the fan doesn't need to operate on my machine.
Castolin 2002 (essentially a fronius magicwave 2000)
Machine is virtually silent for the most part! Less irritation to user.
Less dirt ingress into circuitry. Possible Longer component life
Fan runs proportionally to amount of current been used. Often on low current draws the fan doesn't need to operate on my machine.
Castolin 2002 (essentially a fronius magicwave 2000)
chevy2
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Had an r-tech a while back and the constant running fan was so loud i'd always shut the machine off after doing a weld,
not really ideal if you're doing a balance of fabrication and welding over a period of hours,
replaced it with a Miller that has fan on demand and that often gets left on between welding whilst making the next part to be welded,
for what i do its ideal but if you "just" weld then fan on demand isn't a deal breaker.
not really ideal if you're doing a balance of fabrication and welding over a period of hours,
replaced it with a Miller that has fan on demand and that often gets left on between welding whilst making the next part to be welded,
for what i do its ideal but if you "just" weld then fan on demand isn't a deal breaker.
Paul G
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When I first bought my Dynasty it used to frighten the life out of me.
I'd be half way round a pipe root, tungsten in close, onion progressing nicely, when ARRRRGH, I'd jump right out of my slippers.
Used to it now. It's like a little warning system that says; Oi you! Did you ever read the bit in the manual about duty cycles?
Obviously a Dynasty doesn't have a duty cycle. They just go on and on and on and on……………..
Paul G
I'd be half way round a pipe root, tungsten in close, onion progressing nicely, when ARRRRGH, I'd jump right out of my slippers.
Used to it now. It's like a little warning system that says; Oi you! Did you ever read the bit in the manual about duty cycles?
Obviously a Dynasty doesn't have a duty cycle. They just go on and on and on and on……………..
Paul G
depends on the fan.
i use several welders regualy the ones with contant fan seem to have quiet fans can hear it but not anoying , the ones with fan on demand are quieter when the fans not running but the fan is louder when it is.
tho the rtech 251 is a bit loud its managable for the amount i use it tho. but one of the big migs that has a 2 speed fan makes even the r tech seem quiet, the slow speed sounds like the leccy fans on a car, when the high speed kicks in you'd be forgven for thinking that it's actualy trying to take off
i use several welders regualy the ones with contant fan seem to have quiet fans can hear it but not anoying , the ones with fan on demand are quieter when the fans not running but the fan is louder when it is.
tho the rtech 251 is a bit loud its managable for the amount i use it tho. but one of the big migs that has a 2 speed fan makes even the r tech seem quiet, the slow speed sounds like the leccy fans on a car, when the high speed kicks in you'd be forgven for thinking that it's actualy trying to take off
matt1978
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It depends on your application.
Most Industrial quality machines made within the last 8 years or so have it as standard for the reasons outlined above.
If your a large fabricator with lets say 10 welding machines plugged in but not always welding for 8-10 hours a day then the potential electrical wastage is pretty large.
If your a Hobby/DIY person buying a DIY/semi-pro machine then I guess its negligible
Most Industrial quality machines made within the last 8 years or so have it as standard for the reasons outlined above.
If your a large fabricator with lets say 10 welding machines plugged in but not always welding for 8-10 hours a day then the potential electrical wastage is pretty large.
If your a Hobby/DIY person buying a DIY/semi-pro machine then I guess its negligible
matt1978
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What size fans (electrically speaking) do these machines use?
Say 10 machines, each with a fan rated at 200w, running those fans for 50% of a 10 hour day instead of the 100% of an always on fan - would make a saving of 10 units of electricity per day.
Based on 250 working days per year, that's 2,500 units saved. A high usage customer really should be able to get electricity at about 10p+vat/unit.
On those figures, that's a £250/year saving on electricity.
I'm not disputing that it's a saving, and if I could save £250 a year on my electricity I'd be quite chuffed - but is it a significant enough proportion of a large fabricator's electricity bill to sway a multi-thousand-pound purchasing decision?
Obviously, the flip side to this coin is that percentage point savings in electrical consumption mean the manufacturers score 'green points' and might even be allowed to use a sticker
Taken completely on it's own I don't think 'fan on demand' makes enough of a difference in power usage to put it much above 'negligable' when you're talking around 0.5% or less of the total for a given sole machine - but put it in conjunction with the other advances in tech over the same 8 year period and yes, as a whole the newer machines can make a fairly significant difference.
Some of these machines have some very sizeable Fans, especially the older style American machines. Also in this sort of environment and the sort of customers I am referring to, the machines are quite often water-cooled too. So it's not just the fan that's on all the time, its the cooler aswell.
But in anycase, you missed a crucial part of my post....... "Most Industrial quality machines made within the last 8 years or so have it as standard" I don't believe that in most cases now from reputable manufacturers the machines have a buying price for non fan on demand or a higher price with fan on demand. Its pretty much a standard feature nowadays.
In instances like this the customer is generally already in the market to buy new machines anyway, so its seldom the case that they think well I may as well skip that fleet of perfectly performing older style machines and spend £1000's on new ones just because they have fan on demand. Its usually the case that fan on demand is a positive by product of buying the new machines that they was going to buy anyway but for reasons such as no repair costs for the forseable future and added benefits of faster welding processes or better welding results etc.
But don't under estimate the savings of switching from old style in-efficient Transformer types without Fan or Cooler on demand against a Modern inverter, sometimes the savings can be close on a £1000 per year per machine.
matt1978
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Ok I apologise, I didn't read your reply properly.
But, even negating the Water-Cooled machines and just looking at Gas-Cooled, in some instances the Fan can make a significant difference to the overall running cost of the machine, but to be fair sometimes it's not much.
A lot depends obviously on the size of the fan, but also just as crucial are the periods of time that the machines are not being used for welding.
When we have carried out electrical consumption comparison surveys at these type of customers the middle and upper management are generally always amazed when we tell them that the "welding" process sometimes only accounts for as little as 15%-20% of the working shift. The other times can be spent reading drawings, waiting for cranes to turn jobs, grinding, tacking, fag breaks, general shirking etc. This is bad enough on a 5 day week 8hr day, but when its multiplied over weekends and multi-shifts the results get very interesting.
But, even negating the Water-Cooled machines and just looking at Gas-Cooled, in some instances the Fan can make a significant difference to the overall running cost of the machine, but to be fair sometimes it's not much.
A lot depends obviously on the size of the fan, but also just as crucial are the periods of time that the machines are not being used for welding.
When we have carried out electrical consumption comparison surveys at these type of customers the middle and upper management are generally always amazed when we tell them that the "welding" process sometimes only accounts for as little as 15%-20% of the working shift. The other times can be spent reading drawings, waiting for cranes to turn jobs, grinding, tacking, fag breaks, general shirking etc. This is bad enough on a 5 day week 8hr day, but when its multiplied over weekends and multi-shifts the results get very interesting.
i'm very skeptical of cost savengs of running inverters. the old welders are basicly a big old lump of copper and iron sat in a box and it's nigh on inpossible to upset it no matter what.
the odd dinze connector may melt, occasinaly the contactor may give up even known a dioed pop but they are all easy cheep fixes. but some inverter machenes can be the absolute opposite they clam to save X but when they go wrong the rep would have you belive it's your fault for not keeping it in a climate controled clean room on it's own special powersupply. the "board" and it allways is the "board" will never be less than £500 often closer to £1000
the odd dinze connector may melt, occasinaly the contactor may give up even known a dioed pop but they are all easy cheep fixes. but some inverter machenes can be the absolute opposite they clam to save X but when they go wrong the rep would have you belive it's your fault for not keeping it in a climate controled clean room on it's own special powersupply. the "board" and it allways is the "board" will never be less than £500 often closer to £1000
is see both sides of the argument. what massivly puts me off inverters i've had a couple go bang and there allways seems to be an excuse as to why its not coverd by warranty they argue that white is black and vice versa. with an inverter id want to see it pay for itself before the warranty is out to buy on energy saveing benefits allone.
at soem point hopefully in the the not to distant i'll be infesting in a whole load of kit again for a new venture, i'll be a mixtrure of tranny and inverter but the welders will be all old skool transformers to start with, as don't have to pay for the leccy till somewhen after ive used it then if things work out newer fancyer kit but then i think invertes will be the nessacery evil as i'll be after features that are proably exclusive to inverters
at soem point hopefully in the the not to distant i'll be infesting in a whole load of kit again for a new venture, i'll be a mixtrure of tranny and inverter but the welders will be all old skool transformers to start with, as don't have to pay for the leccy till somewhen after ive used it then if things work out newer fancyer kit but then i think invertes will be the nessacery evil as i'll be after features that are proably exclusive to inverters
matt1978
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Regarding potential savings it's one of the greyist of grey areas there ever was.
It's certainly not true to say that all Transformers are bad and inefficient because sometimes they consume almost as little power as a modern inverter. Modern day Transformer machines tend to have Fan and Water-Coolers on demand and this is the area where the bigger savings tend to arise from.......BUT there can still be significant differences between the KwH consumption when both types of welders are welding side by side providing they are on the same Voltage and wire feed rate. This is usually down to the quality of the Transformer and how well it's wound.
If it's a case that your comparing against a old Transformer that is power hungry during welding mode and also in idle mode the savings can really stack up.
But as I said sometimes we have made comparisons with not so old Transformer machines and the savings can only be negligible.
Some of the quite old Murex, Miller, Lincolns, have been massively inefficient, but even then it always has to be done on a case by case basis. Even different models from the same manufacturers have wildly different results.
We have a very simple plug in meter that records the Watts in Idle mode and the KwH consumption in welding mode. It's really not rocket science nor is it smoke and Mirrors. You just leave the meter plugged in over the course of a typical shift and measure the total KwH consumed by that machine in that day, then repeat the same process with one of our machines and then it's easy to see potential savings. Then it's just a case of working out the idle time against welding time ratio (which we can do as our machine stores idle and welding time internally) then scale up to one week, one month, one year etc.
It's certainly not true to say that all Transformers are bad and inefficient because sometimes they consume almost as little power as a modern inverter. Modern day Transformer machines tend to have Fan and Water-Coolers on demand and this is the area where the bigger savings tend to arise from.......BUT there can still be significant differences between the KwH consumption when both types of welders are welding side by side providing they are on the same Voltage and wire feed rate. This is usually down to the quality of the Transformer and how well it's wound.
If it's a case that your comparing against a old Transformer that is power hungry during welding mode and also in idle mode the savings can really stack up.
But as I said sometimes we have made comparisons with not so old Transformer machines and the savings can only be negligible.
Some of the quite old Murex, Miller, Lincolns, have been massively inefficient, but even then it always has to be done on a case by case basis. Even different models from the same manufacturers have wildly different results.
We have a very simple plug in meter that records the Watts in Idle mode and the KwH consumption in welding mode. It's really not rocket science nor is it smoke and Mirrors. You just leave the meter plugged in over the course of a typical shift and measure the total KwH consumed by that machine in that day, then repeat the same process with one of our machines and then it's easy to see potential savings. Then it's just a case of working out the idle time against welding time ratio (which we can do as our machine stores idle and welding time internally) then scale up to one week, one month, one year etc.
Richard.
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My old magicwave I could use it all day below 100 amps and not hear a peep out of it. This is proper fan as needed. My mls is a bit of a hybrid as although it's not running all the time it will cut in at low amps so it's not always as needed. Better duty cycle out the mls but the Mw was gleaming inside as it rarely bought in any dust. Fan on demand is the way forward IMO.
