Energy prices.

[daleyd]

I thought we were further ahead with LEDs, I just quickly checked some IKEA ones I put in a floor lamp back along and they appear to show a touch over 160 lumens per watt and cost sod all. Sure Philips put out specialised efficient versions now, iirc big live on YouTube has some videos up.

Normal ikea led bulb

I seem to recall that you can also usually use much smaller leds compared to metal halide etc because their light is directional - as opposed to needing a reflector etc which reduces the efficiency

 

[fizzy]

I seem to recall that you can also usually use much smaller leds compared to metal halide etc because their light is directional - as opposed to needing a reflector etc which reduces the efficiency

Well my 400W metal halide bulbs with reflectors seem to be a tad better than the 400W LED ones. I used a light meter to check. LEDs bright directly underneath but off to the sides the metal halide was better.
Tbh I would rate them equal.

 

[fizzy]

I meant saying LEDs use more energy than the old lamps, that is utter nonsense

What I actually said was
"Believe it or not the LED lights are no more efficient than the old sodium ones."

 

[daleyd]

Well my 400W metal halide bulbs with reflectors seem to be a tad better than the 400W LED ones. I used a light meter to check. LEDs bright directly underneath but off to the sides the metal halide was better.
Tbh I would rate them equal.

other people have different experience- it was discussed on here a while back - it was actually your thread, where 400w MH had been replaced with 120w led and the led were deemed to be better…

Metal Halide or LED

I need to replace 3 lights in the warehouse. They are 400W metal halide GES 40mm. They have lasted about 10 years or more so no complaints there! I have been looking at LED replacements but the brightest I can find are 120W claiming 16,000 lumens. The metal halide bulbs are 34,000 lumens - a...

www.mig-welding.co.uk

but you obviously don’t agree so I guess you should probably stick with your 400w units.

 

[fizzy]

other people have different experience- it was discussed on here a while back - it was actually your thread, where 400w MH had been replaced with 120w led and the led were deemed to be better…

Metal Halide or LED

I need to replace 3 lights in the warehouse. They are 400W metal halide GES 40mm. They have lasted about 10 years or more so no complaints there! I have been looking at LED replacements but the brightest I can find are 120W claiming 16,000 lumens. The metal halide bulbs are 34,000 lumens - a...

www.mig-welding.co.uk

but you obviously don’t agree so I guess you should probably stick with your 400w units.

It has been 5 months since I fitted the lights.
I still think the same.

 

[S-Rail]

Fair enough, but surely the scrotes aren't going to break into the tenth floor? Security is one thing, but lighting up a ten storey building like a Christmas tree is madness. Plus, Christmas trees have little twinkly lights. We don't normally surround them with floodlights!

I was referring to factories / work units , I am with you on offices and alikes .. seems a crazy world we live in . Let alone the light pollution , I can’t see what sense there is to just blow money .

My local town , ten miles away has a floodlit football pitch , and it’s hidden by hills / lane contours , but on a clear / slightly cloudy night , i can see the light / haze . I don’t see why they are on all night , apart from vanity

 

[fizzy]

I was referring to factories / work units , I am with you on offices and alikes .. seems a crazy world we live in . Let alone the light pollution , I can’t see what sense there is to just blow money .

My local town , ten miles away has a floodlit football pitch , and it’s hidden by hills / lane contours , but on a clear / slightly cloudy night , i can see the light / haze . I don’t see why they are on all night , apart from vanity

Sadly I think LED lights have a lot to answer for. People leave them on all night as they think they are so much cheaper. Defeats the energy saving potential sadly.
Warehouse next to mine replaced his old auto floodlights with new LED manually switched. They are on all weekend even in the day.
His answer was they were so much cheaper to run there was no need to turn them off

 

[daleyd]

Sadly I think LED lights have a lot to answer for. People leave them on all night as they think they are so much cheaper. Defeats the energy saving potential sadly.
Warehouse next to mine replaced his old auto floodlights with new LED manually switched. They are on all weekend even in the day.
His answer was they were so much cheaper to run there was no need to turn them off

Yes it’s those pesky efficient lights that are to blame

In your friends case if it’s actually costing him less to run them than his old ones, despite leaving them on all the time then you do realise it’s still saving energy?

Obviously not as much as if he turned them off but the simple fact is if he’s paying less, then that’s less energy consumed. If he’s paying more but thinks it’s less then he’s simply stupid and I can’t see how that’s the fault of a bulb.

 

[Kayos]

BBC News - UK’s nuclear power push may add to energy bills, minister says

UK’s nuclear power push will add to energy bills, ministers say

Kwasi Kwarteng says there may be a "small effect" on energy bills under a new nuclear funding model.

www.bbc.co.uk

Add to energy bills in the short term, but no time frame specified. So we subsidise nuclear at a time when bills are high and millions are struggling?

Another well thought out plan. I bet those moaning are the same ones who can't even be bothered to learn how to cook a meal for 30p....

(I am far from anti nuclear, this just shows how out of touch this tory govt is)

 

[atomant48]

Sadly I think LED lights have a lot to answer for. People leave them on all night as they think they are so much cheaper. Defeats the energy saving potential sadly.
Warehouse next to mine replaced his old auto floodlights with new LED manually switched. They are on all weekend even in the day.
His answer was they were so much cheaper to run there was no need to turn them off

I think you’re right - that’s certainly the approach my kids take (now I really am sounding like my dad !!). Sadly they have no concept of cost or energy yet.

I’ve no idea either way but how is the “total life” energy of the 2 types - ie with manufacturing etc ? The shear number of lightbulbs in the world should make that a significant consideration I guess.

 

[Gareth J]

Every little helps but good to keep things in perspective. Lighting pales into insignificance when you compare it to heating. Particularly because, when it's cold and dark outside, you more likely to need a bit of heat as well lighting. During which times, your "wasted" energy from incandescent/LED/candles/whatever, helps heat the house. Generally on lower carbon electric than the often 100% fossil fuel heating we have.

"The first boiler I found online had an output of 12KW, so one hour of running that boiler is the equivalent of 1,440 hours of leaving a light on — or, if you prefer, running your boiler for about three seconds is the equivalent of leaving a light on for an hour."

Turning off the lights won't save the planet

Understanding climate change means understanding scale

unherd.com

I recently changed all the T8 bulbs here for LEDs. Better light, longer service life (apparently, although I'm not sure that'll pan out) and gone is the annoying startup of fluorescents. Have I noticed a saving? No, it pales into insignificance compared to heating, cooling and running motors.

 

[daleyd]

Every little helps but good to keep things in perspective. Lighting pales into insignificance when you compare it to heating. Particularly because, when it's cold and dark outside, you more likely to need a bit of heat as well lighting. During which times, your "wasted" energy from incandescent/LED/candles/whatever, helps heat the house. Generally on lower carbon electric than the often 100% fossil fuel heating we have.

"The first boiler I found online had an output of 12KW, so one hour of running that boiler is the equivalent of 1,440 hours of leaving a light on — or, if you prefer, running your boiler for about three seconds is the equivalent of leaving a light on for an hour."

Turning off the lights won't save the planet

Understanding climate change means understanding scale

unherd.com

I recently changed all the T8 bulbs here for LEDs. Better light, longer service life (apparently, although I'm not sure that'll pan out) and gone is the annoying startup of fluorescents. Have I noticed a saving? No, it pales into insignificance compared to heating, cooling and running motors.

Of course the bigger things have more of an impact, that’s entirely sensible. It makes sense to make the biggest savings you can but when you can’t do any more then you move on to the next and so on - lighting is an easy win because it’s easy to change as opposed to boilers which come with significant capital cost.

If you replaced, for ease of maths, 10 100w incandescent bulbs with 10 8w led then you have cut a 1kw load down to 80w - a worthwhile saving if that load is going to be on a few hours a day.

I also don’t get the idea that heat from incandescent bulbs is in any way useful either - it’s generally at ceiling level and contributing nothing, or at least very little to the heating of a room.

 

[Kayos]

Every little helps but good to keep things in perspective. Lighting pales into insignificance when you compare it to heating. Particularly because, when it's cold and dark outside, you more likely to need a bit of heat as well lighting. During which times, your "wasted" energy from incandescent/LED/candles/whatever, helps heat the house. Generally on lower carbon electric than the often 100% fossil fuel heating we have.

"The first boiler I found online had an output of 12KW, so one hour of running that boiler is the equivalent of 1,440 hours of leaving a light on — or, if you prefer, running your boiler for about three seconds is the equivalent of leaving a light on for an hour."

Turning off the lights won't save the planet

Understanding climate change means understanding scale

unherd.com

I recently changed all the T8 bulbs here for LEDs. Better light, longer service life (apparently, although I'm not sure that'll pan out) and gone is the annoying startup of fluorescents. Have I noticed a saving? No, it pales into insignificance compared to heating, cooling and running motors.

In a big building lighting is a no brainer for us. Instant 50% savings with relatively low outlay
Add in some solar PV and the boiler upgrade becomes more about reducing carbon than saving energy, although we design systems to do both

 

[Gareth J]

Of course the bigger things have more of an impact, that’s entirely sensible. It makes sense to make the biggest savings you can but when you can’t do any more then you move on to the next and so on - lighting is an easy win because it’s easy to change as opposed to boilers which come with significant capital cost.

If you replaced, for ease of maths, 10 100w incandescent bulbs with 10 8w led then you have cut a 1kw load down to 80w - a worthwhile saving if that load is going to be on a few hours a day.

I also don’t get the idea that heat from incandescent bulbs is in any way useful either - it’s generally at ceiling level and contributing nothing, or at least very little to the heating of a room.

I agree it's a low hanging fruit, so why not go for it. Just have to keep in mind that it's a rather small fruit, in the bigger picture!

If your waste heat from lighting is 1kW, if it's within the heated envelope of the house, that's 1kW less heating needed. And, is more than likely lower carbon than a gas boiler's 1kW.

Utterly pointless when you want the house cooler or for outdoor lighting though!

I'm not against LEDs, all but a few random rarely used bulbs here are LED.

 

[daleyd]

I agree it's a low hanging fruit, so why not go for it. Just have to keep in mind that it's a rather small fruit, in the bigger picture!

If your waste heat from lighting is 1kW, if it's within the heated envelope of the house, that's 1kW less heating needed. And, is more than likely lower carbon than a gas boiler's 1kW.

Utterly pointless when you want the house cooler or for outdoor lighting though!

I'm not against LEDs, all but a few random rarely used bulbs here are LED.

Yeah I understand that “wasted” heat from lighting is contributing something, my point is that it’s doing little of any use (in most cases). I don’t think it would ever translate into 1 kw less heating input needed as it’s not warming an area where you need it. I can imagine it making a small difference but I think it would be marginal at best.

The ceiling area is already warm air that has risen from radiators or other heat sources, waste heat from a bulb is simply heating air that is already warm and at a level that no one notices - the air is already at ceiling level. If you were to put 1kw of ceiling lighting on and no other heating source or a 1 kw fan heater at floor level then I bet you would feel warmer with the fan heater.

 

[fizzy]

Of course the bigger things have more of an impact, that’s entirely sensible. It makes sense to make the biggest savings you can but when you can’t do any more then you move on to the next and so on - lighting is an easy win because it’s easy to change as opposed to boilers which come with significant capital cost.

If you replaced, for ease of maths, 10 100w incandescent bulbs with 10 8w led then you have cut a 1kw load down to 80w - a worthwhile saving if that load is going to be on a few hours a day.

I also don’t get the idea that heat from incandescent bulbs is in any way useful either - it’s generally at ceiling level and contributing nothing, or at least very little to the heating of a room.

Think of it as underfloor heating for the room upstairs.
Where do you think the heat goes?
Obviously it is into your house.

 

[daleyd]

Think of it as underfloor heating for the room upstairs.
Where do you think the heat goes?
Obviously it is into your house.

Well - I didn’t say it completely wasted I said it was probably making a very marginal difference (at best) and is heating the wrong area. Why do you think they don’t put radiators on the ceiling . Maybe that’s where the real energy savings are to be made.

And for rooms upstairs - I guess heating the attic might be of some benefit though I don’t know if any of the heat would make it through several inches of insulation. But yeah, whatever makes you feel better I guess

 

[bricol]

Think of it as underfloor heating for the room upstairs.
Where do you think the heat goes?
Obviously it is into your house.

I live in a bungalow . . .

 

[bricol]

Sadly I think LED lights have a lot to answer for. People leave them on all night as they think they are so much cheaper. Defeats the energy saving potential sadly.
Warehouse next to mine replaced his old auto floodlights with new LED manually switched. They are on all weekend even in the day.
His answer was they were so much cheaper to run there was no need to turn them off

15 yrs ago I was heavily into designing a bit of equipment using LEDs for an industrial testing bit of kit, and subscribed to a US LED Magazine. I recall an article where they said exactly this - people removed a lot of older lighting and fitted LEDs.

They either fitted more LEDs, as they had all this "free" capacity to use compared to the previous lighting, or because it was using less power, simply left them on - energy use the same as before.

Me - I have two 10W LEDs in the living room, and one 5W over my work desk - which is considerably less than the two 60W or even 100W I might have had - still got more than enough light.

One thing that does come up - LED lights do give some chronic headaches - they seem more susceptible to the effects of the constant, although mega-faast, switching on/off of the drivers.

 

[Gareth J]

And for rooms upstairs - I guess heating the attic might be of some benefit though I don’t know if any of the heat would make it through several inches of insulation. But yeah, whatever makes you feel better I guess

If only a marginal amount of energy is lost through the attic, because it's appropriately insulated, then the vast majority of our hypothetical 1kW is helping keep the house warm.

Think of it a different way, in order to keep a room comfortable, xkW are needed to balance the energy that moves out via conduction through surfaces and air exchanges. A light bulb will unlikely be enough to achieve this but, even if it only heats the ceiling area a little, that's a little bit less the radiators need to heat the ceiling. Air from your rads will convect back down a little bit more slowly and the boiler will work a little less hard. It's a one for one exchange. However, it'll cost more. As, per kWh, electric costs more.