Electrode choice

[Sid]

Hi all.

I've never welded before, but will be kicking off with a bit of arc welding.

Anyway, to the question. Which rod. Some online vids http://www.tonywelding.com/ lead me to believe that 6013 is (and I quote) easy to learn, hard to use, easy strike, but the slag hides the weld puddle. It seems the best feature of this rod is that it's AC or DC+-.

The recommended rod though is the 6010. The big downside is that it's DC only, but he describes it as a deep penetrating rod with quick freeze, thin slag and you can use lower amps (although that's not an issue).

OK, I've bought a DC machine so can use either, but it seems that most sources of rods I've seen stock 6013 (understandably) but not the 6010. Is their much difference between them and should I worry? Should I just stick (no pun intended) with the 6013 and not worry so much

To get myself off to a good start, I've seen in my searching, that not all rods are the same in terms of quality. So what are the brands that I should go for?

Cheers, Sid.

 

[Paul.]

Hi
If your learning I'd start off with some E6013, BOC Everyday, Murex, Oerlikons, etc are all well known makes, buy from a trade supplier stay away, from Diy and motor accessory shops, you don't say what thickness of material your welding but 2.5mm is a good size electrode to get you started, and will run on single phase 13 amp welders without problems, When you get started post some photos of your welds and any questions and we''ll point you in the right direction.

 

[Sid]

Hi Paul.

The first thing I'll be welding in anger will be a rusted subframe. It's a two skin pressing, each about 2 to 3 mm thick. In one section one of the skins has rotted away, so want to replace. I guess I'll have to up the power as the second skin will sink heat away, but having the two skins fuse together will be OK (so long as there's no crud in there to contaminate the weld). After that there's a single skin part that's around 1mm thickness that will need cutting out and replacing. It would be so much easier to buy a second hand replacement, but where's the fun in that!

My machine is a MMA and Tig, but I'd rather delay the getting of gas if I can, as the garage is rather full of my car, in many bits. Plus once welded up, it may take a while to put it all back together again. I'm a very slow mechanic , mostly because I'm too fussy! Still, better than being slapdash.

Oh, and I'll definately post up my first efforts. Hopefully they'll not be too bad as I've bought a nice welder! (IFL 200PHF )

There is a local welding shop (Weld air supplies in Dunstable) so they should have a good selection of rods and other consumables, but it would be good to go with a wishlist of make and size of rods.

Sid.

 

[ben8vgte]

I always found weld air very helpful, just a little pricey

 

[shenion]

2-3mm will need small rods. Some 1.6 or 2mm E6013's will do.

6010 is for heavy plate, not needed here.

1mm will be very difficult even with 1.6mm rods. May need to get your TIG setup going for that.

 

[Paul.]

A rusty subframe!, Probably best to get a pack of 2mm and a pack of 2.5 then, although not the best project for a beginner, you''ll struggle arc welding 1mm. If you can get it clean enough, the Tig function may be the way to go on that part, Ideally though a small Mig set would probably be the best tool for the job,

 

[Drains]

Sid, 6011's do AC, but that's not what you want either. You could also use 7016/7018's, amongst others. But in this case decent 6013's will do you fine. They are easy to learn AND easy to use, but there are skills to using them - making sure you can see the weld pool is one, keeping ahead of the slag is another. You have an advantage using a dc set in that you can go electrode negative, which is handy on thin material as it lowers the penetration, making you less likely to blow holes.

If you're welding 1mm, then 1.6mm rods are all you need. You will need plenty of practice though mate. You have to learn how long to have the arc, when to lengthen it slightly (necessary with 6013's to separate the slag out), how fast to travel etc etc. And you'll have to learn how to do positional, and how to play with the amps to get the rod to behave the way you want.

MMA is one of those skills that seems really simple, but needs a "touch", and plenty of feel. Like plastering.

 

[Sid]

I always found weld air very helpful, just a little pricey

Helpful -> good.
Price is often worth if for the convenience. We'll see. We'll haggle!

2-3mm will need small rods. Some 1.6 or 2mm E6013's will do.

6010 is for heavy plate, not needed here.

1mm will be very difficult even with 1.6mm rods. May need to get your TIG setup going for that.

The video's I referred to did seem to make many references to heavy plate and construction welding, so perhaps the advice is a little off for home use.

So 6013 it is.

How thin do you think I'm likely to be able to cope with as a newbie? How thin can a welding god go?

Does running DC- allow you to weld thinner? <EDIT> SimonDrains says yes </EDIT>

Does look like I'll be playing with the Tig sooner rather than later though. It may be more sensible to learn one new style and do both with that, ie Tig. Only thing is that I'm not sure how clean I'll be able to get the double skin section. I am right in assuming stick welding is more tolerant to less than perfect preparation aren't I?

So many questions

Thanks for all your pointers guys.

 

[Sid]

...you'll have to learn how to do positional....

MMA is one of those skills that seems really simple, but needs a "touch", and plenty of feel. Like plastering.

Should have mentioned the subframe is off of the car, so can position the frame however I like.

I hear what you say about getting the knack of it though. I'm a bricklayer and it's all practice and experience.

 

[shenion]

I found (thanks to TIG Paul) 1.6 and 2mm 6013's violate the "standard" for arc welding. You need to drag the rods, not maintain a gap. They will maintain their own arc length inside the flux coating. You will find on the back side of the rod, the flux will extend down to the weld pool and maintain the correct arck length.

If you lift the rod, the flux will get in front of the weld and you will have problems of slag inclusions.

At 2.4mm and above they work like all other rods and maintain a rod diameter arc length. Remember almost every welding tutorial I have seen talks about 3.2mm rods. The Lincoln Arc Welding Guide does at least say to drag the rod when doing thin metal.

A short arc length keeps the power down and focused. It seems counter-intuitive but a larger arc lengh increases the heat.

Give it a try with some 6013 1.6mm rods. They work well on AC or DC.

 

[Sid]

I found (thanks to TIG Paul) 1.6 and 2mm 6013's violate the "standard" for arc welding. You need to drag the rods, not maintain a gap. They will maintain their own arc length inside the flux coating. You will find on the back side of the rod, the flux will extend down to the weld pool and maintain the correct arck length..

Those videos I mentioned said you could drag 7024's as they have a thick Rutile coating. Dragging the (small) 6013's will certainly solve the challenge of arc length!

If you lift the rod, the flux will get in front of the weld and you will have problems of slag inclusions.

This makes sense, and tallies with the info in the videos of the slag covering the actual weld.

A short arc length keeps the power down and focused. It seems counter-intuitive but a larger arc lengh increases the heat.

Give it a try with some 6013 1.6mm rods. They work well on AC or DC.

Agreed on the type and size now.

With regards to heat, I thought that a longer arc would require more power from the machine as it's a constant current process, but don't know how much goes into the metal and how much would be radiated away. I guess deliberately lengthening the arc is just one of the techniques to learn?

 

[shenion]

With regards to heat, I thought that a longer arc would require more power from the machine as it's a constant current process, but don't know how much goes into the metal and how much would be radiated away. I guess deliberately lengthening the arc is just one of the techniques to learn?

Say you are welding with 1/8" arc length at 100A. Volts would be something like 20V.

You move out to 1/4" Current will stay the same but the resistance of the arc doubles, so the voltage goes to 40V.

100A * 20V = 2kw
100A * 40V = 4kw

Actually, the current is not really constant. Would probably be 75A at 35V, still about 2.7kw.

It is against how you would tend to react. See weld pool getting too hot, and pull back to avoid "pushing through". The blow a big hole.

Just takes practice and learning the feel. I did all kinds of bench welds and then failed miserably on some real-world tries. Try to duplicate on the bench what you will be doing, it really helps.

 

[Drains]

With regards to heat, I thought that a longer arc would require more power from the machine as it's a constant current process,

The voltage rises as the arc length increases, so more power overall.

Sorry - that's what Shen said, but without the numbers.

 

[Sid]

The voltage rises as the arc length increases, so more power overall.

Sorry - that's what Shen said, but without the numbers.

Numbers are over rated.

 

[chriskelland]

Interesting, I dumped my (very) old buzz box and got a IFL 160MA and found that suddenly I can do decent welds on 1mm. Assuming the the calibration of the current conrol is reasonable I was using about 20 amps with 1.6 6013's and I'm a rough welder with many years of rough welding experience! I still have to figure out how to post pics, so no photo's yet.

Chris.

 

[Sid]

Interesting, I dumped my (very) old buzz box and got a IFL 160MA and found that suddenly I can do decent welds on 1mm. Assuming the the calibration of the current conrol is reasonable I was using about 20 amps with 1.6 6013's and I'm a rough welder with many years of rough welding experience! I still have to figure out how to post pics, so no photo's yet.

Chris.

Benefit of a quality machine I guess!

To add pictures when you reply, you use the "Add Photographs" button in the "Additional Options" section below where you enter your text. You can then browse your computer for the picture and copy it over. (You have to quote or Go Advanced with your reply rather than the quick reply option).

Interested to see.