Does it have to be 10Kva

[Jack Ryan]

Power is Power.
Energy is Energy.
It has to originate from somewhere, & in a Generator it is Fuel Energy, converted to mechanical energy & inertia that does this.
If you don't create it, put it in - then you cannot get it out... the laws of the universe at work.

Did someone say that wasn't the case?

Already, the notion that Solar & Wind Energy can totally replace conventional Energy - is now being "reconsidered" because quite simply it just doesn't work like that.

Who said "totally replace"? A significant proportion of energy comes from solar and wind - not all.

(Massive cascade grid failure events in chunks of Spain & the USA & already proved that the hard way.

Proved? Proved that the design was inadiquite?

Even a senior WEF figure recently stated that for key Manufacturing Processes like steel & cement, that "Alternative Energy" simply cannot sustain the kilojoules of energy for such processes.

At the moment.

Neither solar nor wind energy (or indeed small engines) can instantly "find" the extra power to react to additional load - they get overwhelmed & fall behind (or fall over, & as one falls, it trips another, and another......

That's what batteries are for.

An inverter as a Producer is still utterly reliant upon the available Energy to power IT. It is no magic bullet that sidesteps the laws of physics.

Did someone suggest otherwise?

[conventional] Generators - will never be "replaced" entirely.

No one said that either. They are quite useful for hydro, nuclear and other fuel sources.

The bottom line is, portable conventional generators are on the way out and decent inverter generators and taking their place.

Jack

 

[Jack Ryan]

You need to factor in "Sales & Marketing" and Price.

1. Yes the engine power is determined by the alternator size & vice versa.... but with lots of wiggle room for "interpretation". E.g. a smaller capacity turbo engine will hit the same peak kva on load test when ramped-up... as a non-turbo.... so they are both able to meet the Regs to be rated at (say) 60kva Prime, 66Kva Standby.
But the non-turbo will spank the turbo unit for Load Acceptance / Motor Start / Impact Load.
Yet you will not find a 60kva non-turbo set for sale today. Why? The smaller turbo unit is cheaper & more competitive on sale price.

2. Inverter sets follow the same market forces thing as above - but with the added "bonus" they can be lighter and smaller if they use a smaller, higher-revving but ultimately less torquey engine as the source..... so they do!

I'm not sure how sales talk alters physics. Talk about peak reminds me of "peak music power" - I think we need to stick with standard specifications.

Just because people buy the cheapest item possible does not mean the technology is flawed.

Jack

 

[roofman]

Ime Sure i can hear swords getting rattled in this thread

 

[GRW]

I'm not sure how sales talk alters physics. Talk about peak reminds me of "peak music power" - I think we need to stick with standard specifications.

Just because people buy the cheapest item possible does not mean the technology is flawed.

Jack

1. It doesn't
2. It is well proven to influence the purchasing decisions of layperson who do not know the difference.
3. "Peak" etc is full defined in ISO8528 - but again very few read that or understand it - they see a kva value & assume they are comparing like-for-like.

(Your previous to that it's not worth getting into - suffice to say that the "at the moment" part alone demonstrates a requirement for the Laws of Physics to alter, & that batteries merely provide a very, very expensive short-term "Buffer", & are again no substitute for additional generated power).

Even small assembled power grids (like say 8 industrial diesels daisy-chained together with Programmable Synch Systems mimic the conventional Grid in miniature... e.g. as well as predicted max load period data to assist - the sets can be set so that as a (say) 65% base load is reached, the system chimes in an extra unit to share & reduce the load percentage, keeping a permanent surge buffer of extra energy in-hand. It hits 65% again, it chimes in another - loads drops, it "parks" one or more of the chain.

To do the same with Wind & Solar - they "have what they have" - so the only way (which is why we see the massive payments to Turbine Co's NOT to Produce).... is to have massive over-capacity at monstrous financial & environmental, land etc cost - to try (& fail) to do, what conventional generation does EASILY & far more cheaply... because such systems can produce extra power on demand - where W & S simply cannot respond.

(We can follow a) Physics or b) "The Ed Miliband Perversion of Physics". I'll go with A).

I shall now sheath my Sabre

 

[Jack Ryan]

1. It doesn't
2. It is well proven to influence the purchasing decisions of layperson who do not know the difference.
3. "Peak" etc is full defined in ISO8528 - but again very few read that or understand it - they see a kva value & assume they are comparing like-for-like.

(Your previous to that it's not worth getting into - suffice to say that the "at the moment" part alone demonstrates a requirement for the Laws of Physics to alter, & that batteries merely provide a very, very expensive short-term "Buffer", & are again no substitute for additional generated power).

Even small assembled power grids (like say 8 industrial diesels daisy-chained together with Programmable Synch Systems mimic the conventional Grid in miniature... e.g. as well as predicted max load period data to assist - the sets can be set so that as a (say) 65% base load is reached, the system chimes in an extra unit to share & reduce the load percentage, keeping a permanent surge buffer of extra energy in-hand. It hits 65% again, it chimes in another - loads drops, it "parks" one or more of the chain.

To do the same with Wind & Solar - they "have what they have" - so the only way (which is why we see the massive payments to Turbine Co's NOT to Produce).... is to have massive over-capacity at monstrous financial & environmental, land etc cost - to try (& fail) to do, what conventional generation does EASILY & far more cheaply... because such systems can produce extra power on demand - where W & S simply cannot respond.

(We can follow a) Physics or b) "The Ed Miliband Perversion of Physics". I'll go with A).

I shall now sheath my Sabre

Yes, I understand all of that but you still left batteries out of the equation.

Nevertheless, portable conventional generators are on the way out.

A significant proportion of domestic power in Australia comes from solar and many of those sites have batteries.

Yes, I understand that the aluminium smelters are not powered by rooftop solar.

Technical issues are not brick walls but there are many still to be solved. For a start, distributed generation requires a rethink of transmission strategies.

I don't think we really disagree on much at all, you just see all the problems while I see the developments.

My sabre was never out, I thought we were having a robust discussion.

Jack

 

[GRW]

Yes, I understand all of that but you still left batteries out of the equation.

Nevertheless, portable conventional generators are on the way out.

A significant proportion of domestic power in Australia comes from solar and many of those sites have batteries.

Yes, I understand that the aluminium smelters are not powered by rooftop solar.

Technical issues are not brick walls but there are many still to be solved. For a start, distributed generation requires a rethink of transmission strategies.

I don't think we really disagree on much at all, you just see all the problems while I see the developments.

My sabre was never out, I thought we were having a robust discussion.

Jack

I did actually mention batteries. Do you have any idea of the sheer size and amount of batteries that would be needed to provide even an extremely short period (minutes, not hours) for batteries to have enough stores energy for what you propose?
Then - add the massive inverters.
Then - of course you'd need even more W & S generation to be able to CHARGE & maintain those massive battery stores, AND sustain the Grid demand.
(BTW- because they are not constant & high-quality energy producers - W & S are not great for battery life charging cycles & equalisation cycles either - so even your bankruptcy costing battery buffers won't charge as well, perfirm as well, or last as well - as they would under conventionally primary generated energy)

I pointed out that at best batteries provide a (hugely, obscenely expensive) "buffer" for the massive limitations & disadvantages of Wind & Solar - I.e. they are utterly dependent upon what W & S energy is available to them from the wind & sun, and WHEN. Solar & Wind cannot be made to REACT to demand, ON demand.

Any way you slice it - Wind & Solar to be remotely resilient would need several orders of magnitude MORE theoretical Production Capacity (at a cost of £45 Trillion being mentioned currently) to try and get around it's massive Achilles Heel, (which is it cannot respond or react to increased demand).... I.e. you need 6 -8x more theoretical Production capacity - to try (& still fail) to meet any maximum grid demand (or of course you ration power & switch areas OFF to save a grid crash instead.... in all liklihood -both). Gotta love those Smart Meters, eh?

Worth noting that once the W & S becomes the largest contributor of energy - then conventional generation brought on line (as has been demonstrated already) cannot stabilise the grid - a cascade crash will occur if it starts, except perhaps if (again) the Grid responds by Blacking out areas beforehand.
We will also of course have vast amounts of eye-wateringly expensive Turbine Farms - that have to spend vast amounts of time NOT producing (as we see already) - but for which we then pay Billions for - to do.... nothing.

Miliband Madness - it's all about as practical as a chocolate welding torch, and at truly OBSCENE financial cost and environmental impact, loss of land, wildlife etc etc.

I used to be involved with off-grid power systems for individual properties, where we needed to find a reasonable cost-performance balance for a property to have 24-hr uninterrupted power.
The ONLY way for such systems to not cost the Earth and actually work and be cost-effective was for it to be a Generator-Battery-Inverter System, of limited output, very carefully balanced mix of genset, battery pack size, charging capacity & Inverter settings to manage the draw of stored battery energy VERY carefully and capped very sensibly. Where W & S were added - the reality is they made very little difference to the balance & setup - all they did was add extra charge in effect to the battery store - so it could go longer between full charge cycles).

As for small portables being more & more inverter - that's driven by the tech getting cheaper - it's not because they are really any "better" for the purpose..... while the biggest market is still the Rental & Industrial Coast ructions type markets.... where they want robust, and the conventional alternator is king.

As an analogy - you CAN use a moped to circumnavigate the globe (& people have).... but that does NOT mean that a moped is the BEST solution for global travel

 

[Bornfree]

We looked at wind, solar and battery to provide power to remote water pumping for free range Poultry. Every company that quoted had a diesel generator as backup. And the costs were incredible just to run a 2.2kw pump 6 hours a day.

 

[GRW]

We looked at wind, solar and battery to provide power to remote water pumping for free range Poultry. Every company that quoted had a diesel generator as backup. And the costs were incredible just to run a 2.2kw pump 6 hours a day.

The unfortunate reality.
Cheaper to have a small industrial diesel (an old school Lister-Petter TS2 air-cooled) with remote start-stop.
Then have the remote start triggered by a float switch, with a contactor on the output with a delay timer (so the set runs up off-load for 20-sec before closing alt output to load).

 

[Bornfree]

The unfortunate reality.
Cheaper to have a small industrial diesel (an old school Lister-Petter TS2 air-cooled) with remote start-stop.
Then have the remote start triggered by a float switch, with a contactor on the output with a delay timer (so the set runs up off-load for 20-sec before closing alt output to load).

We do it even simpler. Staff on site start it up and the float switch turns it off. That way the diesel oil and coolant levels checked every day.

 

[Jack_K]

We do it even simpler. Staff on site start it up and the float switch turns it off. That way the diesel oil and coolant levels checked every day.

Since you already have a diesel pump, you could keep that in use but add a solar pump which runs without a battery. Still not cheap but a lot cheaper than having batteries.

 

[Erie Fred]

For those playing along at home that are a bit cornfused....."G.E." as in "General Electric" has been split into (3) separate companies.
"GE Verona" is the old business sector of generating, distribution arm of G.E.

Power Conversion - Home | Power Conversion & Storage

At the heart of electrifying tomorrow's energy, GE Vernova's Power Conversion drives the electric transformation with advanced motor, drive, and control technologies, enhancing efficiency and decarbonization across marine, energy, and industrial sectors.

www.gevernova.com

GE Vernova launches advanced containerized solution for Battery Enabled Energy Storage (BESS) | GE Vernova News

CAMBRIDGE, Mass. (September 10, 2024) – GE Vernova Inc. (NYSE: GEV) today announced the launch of its advanced containerized solution for Battery Enabled Energy Storage (BESS) - the RESTORE DC Block - which offers enhanced safety, efficiency, flexibility, and long-term performance. With a...

www.gevernova.com

 

[Jack Ryan]

I did actually mention batteries. Do you have any idea of the sheer size and amount of batteries that would be needed to provide even an extremely short period (minutes, not hours) for batteries to have enough stores energy for what you propose?
Then - add the massive inverters.
Then - of course you'd need even more W & S generation to be able to CHARGE & maintain those massive battery stores, AND sustain the Grid demand.
(BTW- because they are not constant & high-quality energy producers - W & S are not great for battery life charging cycles & equalisation cycles either - so even your bankruptcy costing battery buffers won't charge as well, perfirm as well, or last as well - as they would under conventionally primary generated energy)

I pointed out that at best batteries provide a (hugely, obscenely expensive) "buffer" for the massive limitations & disadvantages of Wind & Solar - I.e. they are utterly dependent upon what W & S energy is available to them from the wind & sun, and WHEN. Solar & Wind cannot be made to REACT to demand, ON demand.

Any way you slice it - Wind & Solar to be remotely resilient would need several orders of magnitude MORE theoretical Production Capacity (at a cost of £45 Trillion being mentioned currently) to try and get around it's massive Achilles Heel, (which is it cannot respond or react to increased demand).... I.e. you need 6 -8x more theoretical Production capacity - to try (& still fail) to meet any maximum grid demand (or of course you ration power & switch areas OFF to save a grid crash instead.... in all liklihood -both). Gotta love those Smart Meters, eh?

Worth noting that once the W & S becomes the largest contributor of energy - then conventional generation brought on line (as has been demonstrated already) cannot stabilise the grid - a cascade crash will occur if it starts, except perhaps if (again) the Grid responds by Blacking out areas beforehand.
We will also of course have vast amounts of eye-wateringly expensive Turbine Farms - that have to spend vast amounts of time NOT producing (as we see already) - but for which we then pay Billions for - to do.... nothing.

Miliband Madness - it's all about as practical as a chocolate welding torch, and at truly OBSCENE financial cost and environmental impact, loss of land, wildlife etc etc.

I used to be involved with off-grid power systems for individual properties, where we needed to find a reasonable cost-performance balance for a property to have 24-hr uninterrupted power.
The ONLY way for such systems to not cost the Earth and actually work and be cost-effective was for it to be a Generator-Battery-Inverter System, of limited output, very carefully balanced mix of genset, battery pack size, charging capacity & Inverter settings to manage the draw of stored battery energy VERY carefully and capped very sensibly. Where W & S were added - the reality is they made very little difference to the balance & setup - all they did was add extra charge in effect to the battery store - so it could go longer between full charge cycles).

I see your mindset is rigid.

Sun, batteries and inverters can, and do, service an awful lot of houses. Other sources are necessary for industrial consumption as I have already stated.

Synchronisation is a software issue - it has raised its head, caused failures and provided lessons on multiple occasions.

As for small portables being more & more inverter - that's driven by the tech getting cheaper - it's not because they are really any "better" for the purpose..... while the biggest market is still the Rental & Industrial Coast ructions type markets.... where they want robust, and the conventional alternator is king.

It's also driven by regulation and by requirements. Inverter power is cleaner than conventional (portable) generators and the AVRs are much faster. Many applications need that.

As an analogy - you CAN use a moped to circumnavigate the globe (& people have).... but that does NOT mean that a moped is the BEST solution for global travel

But a Moped is very useful around town, so best not throw them out.

We have different perspectives. Enough said.

Jack

 

[Shedendman]

"i only wanted you to blow the bloody doors off"

 

[GRW]

I see your mindset is rigid.

Sun, batteries and inverters can, and do, service an awful lot of houses. Other sources are necessary for industrial consumption as I have already stated.

Synchronisation is a software issue - it has raised its head, caused failures and provided lessons on multiple occasions.



It's also driven by regulation and by requirements. Inverter power is cleaner than conventional (portable) generators and the AVRs are much faster. Many applications need that.



But a Moped is very useful around town, so best not throw them out.

We have different perspectives. Enough said.

Jack

I'm not trying to be combative or indeed rigid - but there is an awful lot of bunkum that has been repeated enough to be purported as "fact" to suit the Green Agenda.
The "Rigid" bit that gets glossed-over with hyperbole & rhetoric - remains the immutable Laws of Physics.
Rather like the whole Gender thing - there is Reality, & there is "Wannabe" - (I "Identify" as a Millionaire, but for some reason I still don't have the money ).

W & S does not "Service" a lot of houses. It "supports" the LAN by adding small amounts of energy to an already stable grid network. The key here being the W&S synch with the stable Grid - not the other way around.
(In off-grid with Generator - again it is the inverter that synchronisation to the genny - not the other way around).

Synchronisation is NOT a software issue! It ultimately is a Power issue! Engines (of whatever type) can ADD mechanical energy to sustain increased demand, ON demand... W & S are passive in that their output is 100% determined by Wind/Sun strength.
You cannot "Synch" energy you do not have!
(E.g. even common industrial diesel sets with kit like DSE8000 Series Controllers & motorised Breakers - can start, synch and add (choose your kva here) within 20 seconds...... & be brought in long before the already-running sister units reach their limits..... seamless, Synchronised ADDED energy. The hardware & software is NOT the problem - the problem is W&S are passive sources, not dynamic, reactive sources.
This again is immutable, and "software" cannot compensate for a fundamental limitation of the plant.

Inverters are "cleaner". Not strictly true. In fact what you "gain on the swings" you lose on the roundabouts".
Inverters allow the input power source to vary in speed (Frequency) because the Inverter is just taking the available Energy, and instead of it outputting a genuine Analogue AC Waveform, it creates a Digitised version (under an oscilloscope its Waveform can be seen as many small "steps" rather than a smooth curve... the Term "Pure Sinewave" is a misnomer - it just means enough steps to appear smooth - but it's still digitally created steps, not true sinewave).
So - you get a stable voltage, and stable frequency.... but again only within the confines of the available kilowatts of mechanical energy to sustain any applied load.
You also get - the issue of THD, which causes (among other things) build-up of voltage & current on the Neutral leg. Due to the increased use of non-linear drives etc - the UK network has had to go from the industry standard of a Neutral Conductor at 50% diameter to L1, L2, L3... to 100% - to prevent burn-out.
Inverter gens aren't "legislated" that I know of whatsoever either, & while there are very frequency-sensitive digital controllers (themselves fitted due to cost & other Mfr "benefits" over simpler, more tolerant predecessors) that can "play up" off a small conventional genny - the vast majority of appliances etc are designed with a wide tolerance.
(Off-grid, the biggest pest was Washing Machine Controllers resetting part-way through a wash cycle when run off generator power, & I've seen rare cases of old digital machinery controllers - but there are work-arounds).

BTW- inverter gens do not have "AVR's" it's a part of their inverter. AVR's are fitted to give closer voltage control to conventional analogue generators.

(AVR's, in combination with Electronic Engine Governing, PMG's, 3-ph sensing etc - on conventional generators, provide voltage stability that comfortably exceeds the permissable bandwidth of "Mains" electricity, while maintaining Frequency variation within 0.5%. Given that such kit governs better than Utility which everything has to run on.... why would they need to "legislate" to replace that?).

Inverters are extremely useful... but they cannot compensate for any shortfall in W & S to react to changes in load demand - it's that simple.
The Laws of Physics are immutable.