Cylinder Duration

[Popcorn]

They save gas by cutting down on the surge you get with a normal reg, when I first got my TIG a X size bottle was lasting a weekend of practice.
It made it made TIG welding horrendously expensive and if it wasn't for the posts I read on here by @Richard. and @bR39Da about the optimator
I'd have given up with the TIG and gone back to to using a MIG.

Search results for query: optimator 2

 

[Munkul]

I still maintain that a 2 stage reg isn't going to save you much on gas compared with a single stage plus flowmeter, when it's set up properly. I've never even seen a 2stg on a welder, none of mine, nor the machines at work.

I get less than half a second of a ball spike to around 15-16lpm and then drops to ~8lpm which is what I'm using at the minute on TIG.... half a second? And some of that will be ball inertia.

Say I start an arc 100 times, that works out at roughly 7 litres of gas wasted.

A good 2stg reg costs around £110+, compared to a good single stage around £40-50. How long will it take you to recoup that £60 extra? That's almost the price of a bottle refill/swap... say for argument's sake it's the price of a 20l bottle... that extra 60 quid is buying you 4600 litres of gas... to waste that much gas I'd have to strike an arc over 65,700 times.

Now what a 2stg WILL do, is keep your output at a steady rate no matter how full or empty the bottle is. It's something I've only really taken notice of recently - swapping bottles around a bit on our two TIG sets for tacking/welding - the reg needs screwed in a lot more for an empty bottle than for a full.
But, you can counter this, just by checking flowrate and adjusting the reg, as you get through the bottle.

Now I'm not saying it's a bad thing to get a 2stg, I'm just saying, everyone on here seems to think they are essential. They aren't. A flowmeter and correct tuning is.

 

[backpurge]

The main difference between single and multi stage regulators is a single stage reg will always suffer from “regulator creep” to A lesser or greater degree, ie as the cylinder empties the outlet flow from the regulator increases, so to maintain the same outlet flow rate throughout the life of the cylinder you will need to keep re setting the flow rate

 

[Lewis_RX8]

Now I'm not saying it's a bad thing to get a 2stg, I'm just saying, everyone on here seems to think they are essential. They aren't. A flowmeter and correct tuning is.

Sorry to jump in here, I've just started with the shielded gas welding and only using MMA for a year

What would you say the best way to tune them is ?

This is my current setup, Got the tank pressure and then a LPM reading on another pressure gauge on the regulator. Then onto the flowmeter

All i have been doing is opening up tank then increasing the regulator a bit to say 16lpm on the gauge scale. Then I would finally set it while gas is flowing to about 12lpm on the flow meter with adjusting the flow meter knob, For just normal mild steel MIG welding.

Thanks

 

[Munkul]

I've always done it this way, and it's simpler than it sounds:

1. turn the flowmeter wide open
2. screw the reg in while gas purging until you get the reading you want (IIRC around 8-9lpm on a #7 gas lens is what I go for, but it varies)
3. turn the flowmeter down til it backs off the gas a bit. Not much!
4. turn the regulator down and the flowmeter up, until you don't get the start-up surge any more
5. check that you're getting the flowrate you want, repeat steps 3-4 as necessary

You'll end up with a slightly-closed flowmeter, and a regulator with just enough pressure that it delivers the flowrate with minimum start-up surge.

Essentially, you want the regulator to do the metering, not the flowmeter. But you want a slight amount of backpressure from the flowmeter, to dampen the start-up surge.
If you rely on the flowmeter for most of the metering, you'll get a bigger start-up surge.

 

[premmington]

Would that by any chance be an Albee bottle with the integral regulator?

I found them a false economy and have stuck with BOC on their hobby deal; also use a two-stage regulator to minimise usage.

I put two stage regulators on everything - they do pay for themselves in the long run!

 

[Munkul]

The main difference between single and multi stage regulators is a single stage reg will always suffer from “regulator creep” to A lesser or greater degree, ie as the cylinder empties the outlet flow from the regulator increases, so to maintain the same outlet flow rate throughout the life of the cylinder you will need to keep re setting the flow rate

That's right - I put earlier that I screw the regs in on an empty bottle and back out on a full one, but I got it back to front... I have to back them off as the cylinder empties, not screw them in

I guess I used to just leave the regs set at one value and forget about it and probably waste a bit of gas that way, but now I check the flowrate regularly.

 

[Tangledfeet]

Am I right in thinking that two stage regulators are also far better at dealing with the initial surge of gas when the solenoid valve is actuated and gas starts flowing..?

Edit: have just seen the comment above from @Popcorn - that'll learn me to comment before reading previous posts!

 

[Popcorn]

Contary to the above posts I still maintain that the optimator saved me loads of cash.
As I said a full X type bottle was lasting about a weekend of practicing and after buying the optimator, the same size bottle lasted a full year.
With the same sort of use, granted I'd got the hang of things and the supplied reg was probably crap. But there is now way anyone can say it wasn't money well spent........

 

[backpurge]

Don’t doubt “economiser” type regs work, we sell loads plus other flow control devices that I personally think are more effective, but getting 52 times more life out of a cylinder ?

 

[striker]

Don’t doubt “economiser” type regs work, we sell loads plus other flow control devices that I personally think are more effective, but getting 52 times more life out of a cylinder ?

What other devices? I'm all for saving gas. I'm on my second 20litre bottle since August, and I don't do that much!

 

[Popcorn]

Elga Optimator 2 these aren't your run of the mill gas savers/flow control devices. There like the jewel in the crown of regulators, I was very dubious about the claimed savings.
That is until I actually got one, I dare say the savings might not be as good if I'd been as experienced as yourself. But I've never regretted buying it for one minute.

Optimator II | GasiQ

www.gasiq.com

 

[backpurge]

Elga Optimator 2 these aren't your run of the mill gas savers/flow control devices. There like the jewel in the crown of regulators, I was very dubious about the claimed savings.
That is until I actually got one, I dare say the savings might not be as good if I'd been as experienced as yourself. But I've never regretted buying it for one minute.

Optimator II | GasiQ

www.gasiq.com

I agree totally the Elga stuff is all well engineered and manufactured kit, and as you say will pay for itself over time

 

[backpurge]

What other devices? I'm all for saving gas. I'm on my second 20litre bottle since August, and I don't do that much

We do a couple of bits of kit, the Shieldsaver, this is similar to an Optimator and is designed to fit mainly on pipeline outlets and is calibrated to work at around 3.5 bar, is “locks off“ the flow at a pre determined level and greatly reduces pre weld surge. The other unit we do which I prefer is called an Autocontroller, this is a small “widget” that fits into the delivery hose as close as you can get it to the welding machine, this can be used with any inlet pressure and works with either pipelines of cylinders, it locks off the flow and eliminates pre weld surge.

 

[Munkul]

Sorry to sound skeptical, but I believe that once you waste a few bottles of gas at the wrong flowrate, then buy an expensive regulator to "cure" your problems, you pay a lot more attention to getting the flowrate right, and hence save a lot more gas that way than the surge elimination would ever save on its own.
The other reason, IMHO, is when you're doing a lot of practicing, you use a lot of gas all at once, and then scare yourself realising you've done an entire cylinder in a short space of time. Replace cylinder, maybe buy a fancy reg, do a little more practice and then leave it sitting for long periods of time doing nothing, and your cylinder lasts forever.

It's dead easy to run way more gas than you need... I did it myself last year, ran a full 50 litre bottle out in a single job and wondered why/how I'd blitzed it so quickly... had forgotten what the ideal flowrate for a #7 cup was and was running around 12-13lpm instead of 8-9 lpm... for some reason I'd convinced myself that it was "right". 50% extra flowrate means it only lasts 2/3rds as long as it should! AND wasn't shielding as well!

 

[Justme]

66 minutes. But 15lpm seems a lot

I know you are factually correct but 15lpm is the setting I use.

Mainly because I am working outside & the extra gas is worth paying for so as to not get issues that then need fixing.

 

[Stupoty]

I know you are factually correct but 15lpm is the setting I use.

Mainly because I am working outside & the extra gas is worth paying for so as to not get issues that then need fixing.

Outside wind help, it will come in handy when were allowed to go on holiday too !

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[Justme]

Outside wind help, it will come in handy when were allowed to go on holiday too !

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Too much faff moving it to suit the wind & what I am welding.

 

[Dc31]

Thanks for all your input and help guys, it's been useful