Curious device

[hotponyshoes]

Forgive me if I am wrong but the basic premise of this device is based on the theory that 2 opposed magnets can attract & repel with more force than the force needed to push a piece of metal between them.

I have held 2 magnets and pushed metal between them and, yes, it does indeed feel like that is the case.

There must be far simpler models that can be built to show if this theory is correct or not.
I think a couple of ways have already been mentioned in this thread.

With these successively complicated models and animations no progress is being made on proving the basic concept which, as suggested, could be done in an afternoon with basic hand tools.

It's a bit like claiming carrot dust can power a car and starting to design an internal combustion engine before grinding up a bit of carrot and showing that it burns...

 

[Guineafowl]

I would like to very much, of course. As I said many posts ago, I have done various experiments early on to test such things but they were fairly rudimentary, not having a spring balance and limited on other engineering tools. But my experiments and observations have given me a level of optimism (not that I was particularly short on that )

Yes, I’m repeating myself somewhat, and I can see you’re having a lot of fun with designs. But looking at those 3D models and renders, you obviously have some skills, and could do the proof of concept with ease. I’m still baffled why you haven’t, that’s all. This sentence sums it up quite well:

It's a bit like claiming carrot dust can power a car and starting to design an internal combustion engine before grinding up a bit of carrot and showing that it burns...

 

[Dev]

With these successively complicated models and animations no progress is being made on proving the basic concept which, as suggested, could be done in an afternoon with basic hand tools.

It's a bit like claiming carrot dust can power a car and starting to design an internal combustion engine before grinding up a bit of carrot and showing that it burns...

Known in some circles as ‘yak shaving’

 

[Prajna]

Forgive me if I am wrong but the basic premise of this device is based on the theory that 2 opposed magnets can attract & repel with more force than the force needed to push a piece of metal between them.

I have held 2 magnets and pushed metal between them and, yes, it does indeed feel like that is the case.

There must be far simpler models that can be built to show if this theory is correct or not.
I think a couple of ways have already been mentioned in this thread.

With these successively complicated models and animations no progress is being made on proving the basic concept which, as suggested, could be done in an afternoon with basic hand tools.

It's a bit like claiming carrot dust can power a car and starting to design an internal combustion engine before grinding up a bit of carrot and showing that it burns...

Much what @Guineafowl said a number of times. As I answered @Guineafowl, I''ll repeat: I have done some experiments, enough to convince me that it is worth pursuing.

 

[Farside]

It's a bit like claiming carrot dust can power a car and starting to design an internal combustion engine before grinding up a bit of carrot and showing that it burns...

Careful, the last person to invent a device that got its power from vegetables ended up with a sticky end.

 

[cheb]

Known in some circles as ‘yak shaving’

That's a cracking expression. I also like 'Having to reorganise my pincushion'.

And it's a shame 'Your mum' jokes have died out.

 

[Onoff]

Doesn't really matter though. They could both pack in the bickering.

The whole thread is about overcoming friction...

 

[Robotstar5]

This thread is rapidly heading towards so we will never know if it worked, please keep it civil.

 

[Onoff]

It's a bit like claiming carrot dust can power a car

Don't be ridiculous, you need onions too:

The ŠKODA OCTAVIA G-TEC runs on carrots and onions - Škoda Storyboard

Do you want a more environmentally friendly drive while having a combustion engine in your car? How about natural gas in the ŠKODA OCTAVIA G-TEC? Then you can use green fuel made from biowaste or vegetables. Find out how it works.

www.skoda-storyboard.com

Hence the phrase "souped up" presumably?

 

[Screwdriver]

Don't be ridiculous, you need onions too:

The ŠKODA OCTAVIA G-TEC runs on carrots and onions - Škoda Storyboard

Do you want a more environmentally friendly drive while having a combustion engine in your car? How about natural gas in the ŠKODA OCTAVIA G-TEC? Then you can use green fuel made from biowaste or vegetables. Find out how it works.

www.skoda-storyboard.com

Hence the phrase "souped up" presumably?

I've posted this before I think. The phrase is from the equestrian world. Horseracing isn't so much a sport as a betting game where fortunes can be made. Prior to a race, the apocryphal story goes a chap was seen squirting some liquid into the horse mouth.

"What was that then?" he is asked.
"Soup" he says. Yeah, right...

 

[Maker]

I've posted this before I think. The phrase is from the equestrian world. Horseracing isn't so much a sport as a betting game where fortunes can be made. Prior to a race, the apocryphal story goes a chap was seen squirting some liquid into the horse mouth.

"What was that then?" he is asked.
"Soup" he says. Yeah, right...

After 17 pages this thread finally has value, that's genuinely interesting!

 

[Guineafowl]

Much what @Guineafowl said a number of times. As I answered @Guineafowl, I''ll repeat: I have done some experiments, enough to convince me that it is worth pursuing.

There’s the rub - I’m not convinced by that explanation. You could build my prototype in your sleep. Maybe some data from your experiments would help?

The rub on the other side, is that cynics like @Screwdriver and I can’t debunk the machine in terms of magnetic fields. Too complicated. So, if it break the laws of thermodynamics, it’s new science, and you’ll just have to show us.

If nothing else, this thread is intellectually interesting, so I wouldn’t like to see it locked.

 

[Screwdriver]

The rub on the other side, is that cynics like @Screwdriver and I can’t debunk the machine in terms of magnetic fields. Too complicated. So, if it break the laws of thermodynamics, it’s new science, and you’ll just have to show us.

Yes I could and I have offered to examine the mathematical proof or the underlying theory. It wouldn't be that difficult since whatever "energy creating" mechanism is proffered would have to also work with existing empirical evidence (i.e. it must not break things we know already work).

The problem is, the OP refuses to say exactly what he thinks he is tapping into and as for the possibility of seeing any mathematical or formulaic description - forgetaboutit.

So I can only offer my "pop-science" intuitive explanations. That really ought to be enough to be honest because I suspect the OP is "feeling" the weirdness of magnetism and intuits there must therefore be some weird magical force which could be tapped for free energy. Like I said, patent nonsense and I can even see where he is making the biggest mistake:

Not just because the only force you feel from magnets attracting or repelling is the force you yourself are introducing into the system (like pushing on one end of a stick). I suggest he doesn't understand what a field vector is because he keeps going on about them as if they are "unknowable". In reality of course they are well known and the crucial part is, those vectors go from North to South (there are no magnetic monopoles) in a loop and they HAVE to therefore add up to zero.

Frankly, when he goes on to say "the science is wrong" he cannot use the term "field vector" without describing what he thinks that is because the ones he's talking about are simply not the same as those referred to in scientific literature. They are magical vectors which break all known laws of physics...

 

[Guineafowl]

Yes, I’m with you. It’s been interesting to find out how hard it is to model repelling mag fields, but that doesn’t shake the foundations of physics for me.

 

[Prajna]

Yes I could and I have offered to examine the mathematical proof or the underlying theory. It wouldn't be that difficult since whatever "energy creating" mechanism is proffered would have to also work with existing empirical evidence (i.e. it must not break things we know already work).

The problem is, the OP refuses to say exactly what he thinks he is tapping into and as for the possibility of seeing any mathematical or formulaic description - forgetaboutit.

So I can only offer my "pop-science" intuitive explanations. That really ought to be enough to be honest because I suspect the OP is "feeling" the weirdness of magnetism and intuits there must therefore be some weird magical force which could be tapped for free energy. Like I said, patent nonsense and I can even see where he is making the biggest mistake:

Not just because the only force you feel from magnets attracting or repelling is the force you yourself are introducing into the system (like pushing on one end of a stick). I suggest he doesn't understand what a field vector is because he keeps going on about them as if they are "unknowable". In reality of course they are well known and the crucial part is, those vectors go from North to South (there are no magnetic monopoles) in a loop and they HAVE to therefore add up to zero.

Frankly, when he goes on to say "the science is wrong" he cannot use the term "field vector" without describing what he thinks that is because the ones he's talking about are simply not the same as those referred to in scientific literature. They are magical vectors which break all known laws of physics...

If you think you can do a mathematical proof then have at it. There is enough info about what I have proposed for you to design a model (i.e. set diameters, thickness, spacing, magnet strength, etc) and just do it. I haven't once mentioned vector fields. Vector forces, sure, and I believe I used that term correctly. Neither have I claimed the science is wrong, and again that is something you have extrapolated from other comments I have made, your own reactionary nature and the very fact that I claim to be designing something that might act in a way that is not compatible with the laws of thermodynamics. If you are going to claim I said stuff then don't paraphrase, state exactly what I said instead. You have no idea what I know and don't know so drop speculating about that. If you start following the rules of intelligent discussion I believe you will have very little to say.

Shortly I will upload the model to my GitHub and you will then have exact measurements with which to carry out your mathematical analysis. Meanwhile you can develop your own model that encapsulates the principle and calculate to your heart's content.

If magnetic vectors go from North to South then why do both like north poles and like south poles repel? Perhaps magnetic vectors originate in the centre of the dipole and go out from there, some in the direction of the North pole and others in the direction of the South pole. What is a 'Bloch Wall'? Who was Bloch and when did he win his Nobel Prize?

 

[Screwdriver]

If you think you can do a mathematical proof then have at it.

Fine show me your calculations and I will show you where you are wrong.

There is enough info about what I have proposed for you to design a model (i.e. set diameters, thickness, spacing, magnet strength, etc) and just do it.

Haha. You're kidding. You want me to do all the work you are unable to do yourself`? Give me a break.

But no, there isn't any information. Each and every model is different from the last. No mention of any parameters at all.

That would be like me creating a straw man for you to argue against. As for the rest of your diatribe, I will address that and respond fully when I am less busy. It was unpleasant enough having to read through it the first time, I'm not looking forwards to going through it all again just to prove you wrong (again).

I am feeling the effects of perpetual motion sickness.

 

[Welderpaul]

You boys need to chill out a bit....

 

[Screwdriver]

OK. I give up.

 

[Guineafowl]

OK. I give up.

Sit back and watch the Nobel Prize announcements, old boy

 

[Welderpaul]

OK. I give up.

Thanks