Curious device

[Prajna]

The input is an eddy current brake. The losses at this point alone make it pointless.

That's what I want to investigate.

 

[Prajna]

Lots of us on here with 3D printers that would be happy to print suff for you I'm sure.

I'll get on to 3d modeling. Years since I did any.

 

[Onoff]

I managed to watch the first "invention ". A levitation platform made by gluing beetle parts to it's underside which could then lift 300 metres and reach (potentially!) 1500kph. It also made the rider invisible from below. All from a man with no qualifications.
Seems perfectly legit to me.

VW Beetle or stag?

 

[hotponyshoes]

The magnets never actually stick to the disc because their movement is restricted by the swash cylinder. We need a formula to calculate the inductive drag on the disc and a formula to calculate the push/pull forces.

So you don't get any surface friction when trying to rotate the disc because there is an air gap.

But, all you will get is less magnetic force on the disc as the magnet(s) are further away.

So if you leave a small gap you might reduce the pull from 1kg to 0.999kg.
All that means is it will take 0.999kg to move the rotor again.

 

[Prajna]

So you don't get any surface friction when trying to rotate the disc because there is an air gap.

But, all you will get is less magnetic force on the disc as the magnet(s) are further away.

So if you leave a small gap you might reduce the pull from 1kg to 0.999kg.
All that means is it will take 0.999kg to move the rotor again.

It may be so but I want to test that assumption to prove or disprove it. That's science. Since nobody seems willing or capable of giving me a proper analysis I'd prefer to test it for my own satisfaction.

 

[hotponyshoes]

It may be so but I want to test that assumption to prove or disprove it. That's science. Since nobody seems willing or capable of giving me a proper analysis I'd prefer to test it for my own satisfaction.

You could set up a simple test rig, you don't need to go as far as making the leavers and swash cylinder just to measure the forces

 

[Prajna]

Sure.

You could set up a simple test rig, you don't need to go as far as making the leavers and swash cylinder just to measure the forces

I plan to.

 

[Morris]

To respond in a bit more detail, Newton lived from 1642 till 1726. Whilst electromagnetism was known about - at least in terms of lodestones and static electricity - it was not included in Newton's mechanics. Really the study of electromagnetism didn't begin in earnest until after Newton, with Ampere, Gilbert etc.

There was a discussion on the physics stackexchange about whether magnetism obeys Newton's 3rd law. Here is the link: https://physics.stackexchange.com/q...ns-3-textrd-law-and-the-conservation-of-momen

The problem is that we have been indoctrinated with a lot of dogma that we tend to reflexively regurgitate without careful examination. A superb example is the reaction to @Guineafowl's post on the physics forum. Unexamined assumptions block our discovery of stuff and discoveries often happen when someone begins to question whether entrenched dogma really does reflect reality.

Have you actually read the link you quoted? Firstly it's title contains the word "apparent". The answers then proceed to show why it's only apparent and that actually Newtons third law holds for this case.
You ask for proper analysis without saying what you actually want (do you want the magnetic fields analysed down to the quantum level? Newtons third law has been shown to apply at the quantum level) but appear to be somewhat selective in what answers suit you.
In my opinion this really doesn't warrant analysis by a physicist, the eyes of the skilled engineers on here are more than enough.
Myself I think that the input section will cause losses due to the eddy brake effect. The magnets will be attracted to the disc but the square law will be an issue. While being attracted,at the same time the repulsive force will increase to the same square law. Also the magnetic field is instant but the linkage and parts have inertia which introduces lag.
The "swash plate" will need a shallow angle because of the small amount of movement of the magnets will have (for the stated reason). A shallow angle gives the highest friction in the groove and a higher force required to move it.
I believe that the output section will reach a point of equilibrium during any time the input speed is above a few rpm.

 

[Prajna]

Have you actually read the link you quoted? Firstly it's title contains the word "apparent". The answers then proceed to show why it's only apparent and that actually Newtons third law holds for this case.
You ask for proper analysis without saying what you actually want (do you want the magnetic fields analysed down to the quantum level? Newtons third law has been shown to apply at the quantum level) but appear to be somewhat selective in what answers suit you.
In my opinion this really doesn't warrant analysis by a physicist, the eyes of the skilled engineers on here are more than enough.
Myself I think that the input section will cause losses due to the eddy brake effect. The magnets will be attracted to the disc but the square law will be an issue. While being attracted,at the same time the repulsive force will increase to the same square law. Also the magnetic field is instant but the linkage and parts have inertia which introduces lag.
The "swash plate" will need a shallow angle because of the small amount of movement of the magnets will have (for the stated reason). A shallow angle gives the highest friction in the groove and a higher force required to move it.
I believe that the output section will reach a point of equilibrium during any time the input speed is above a few rpm.

@Morris, I understand exactly where you're coming from, just I am not convinced that the induction/eddy forces exactly balance the push/pull forces. In addition to which, the rotor can't feel the load since power can't be pushed back through the system and if power can't then the load can't. If you run it in reverse then the magnets will simply reciprocate, using energy in opposing each other, there will be a certain fluctuating eddy field on the disc but the actual driving force can't be fully transferred to the disc. Or if it is then it is perpendicular to the disc and doesn't impart (and perhaps doesn't even impede) rotation to the disc. I don't know, if course, only experiment will show how things relate (or someone who is very familiar with flux forces may have a good understanding). I doubt there are many people who could look at this and have a thorough understanding of what is really involved in this device.

 

[Onoff]

I firmly believe that point of source hydrogen production is possible from good old H2O, in quantity and able to replace fossil fuels "overnight". Furthermore that's it's been done by various people but that they've been silenced.

To get the best results you have to couple it with Touareg throat singing which many experimenters overlook.

When I get my bench clear I'll do a video...

 

[Onoff]

Oh look, classical physics turned it's head!

After a Century of Searching, Scientists Finally Found A Virtual Magnetic Monopole

Half a magnet is a lot harder to make than you might think.

www.popularmechanics.com

 

[Seadog]

Blimey

 

[Morris]

I firmly believe that point of source hydrogen production is possible from good old H2O, in quantity and able to replace fossil fuels "overnight". Furthermore that's it's been done by various people but that they've been silenced.

To get the best results you have to couple it with Touareg throat singing which many experimenters overlook.

When I get my bench clear I'll do a video...

I find dancing naked around an oak tree at midnight while waving white fivers works for me. Make sure it's an English oak.

 

[Prajna]

Oh look, classical physics turned it's head!

After a Century of Searching, Scientists Finally Found A Virtual Magnetic Monopole

Half a magnet is a lot harder to make than you might think.

www.popularmechanics.com

Champion bit of searching, @Onoff.

 

[Morris]

@Morris, I understand exactly where you're coming from, just I am not convinced that the induction/eddy forces exactly balance the push/pull forces.

Whether you are convinced or not is irrelevant. The physics discussion you posted the link to suggests balance exists.

In addition to which, the rotor can't feel the load since power can't be pushed back through the system and if power can't then the load can't.

Power is consumed it is not pushed. The load is whatever the input (or output if in reverse) sees and determines the power consumed.

If you run it in reverse then the magnets will simply reciprocate, using energy in opposing each other, there will be a certain fluctuating eddy field on the disc but the actual driving force can't be fully transferred to the disc.

This is no different to a one way clutch, power cannot be transferred in reverse. The power consumed in reverse will be that required to drive the swash plate, overcome friction and overcome the magnetic repulsion. That's it, there's no special case.

Or if it is then it is perpendicular to the disc and doesn't impart (and perhaps doesn't even impede) rotation to the disc. I don't know, if course, only experiment will show how things relate (or someone who is very familiar with flux forces may have a good understanding). I doubt there are many people who could look at this and have a thorough understanding of what is really involved in this device.

I think you are underestimating and doing a disservice to the people who will have a thorough understanding. The fact you haven't found them is irrelevant

 

[Prajna]

Please explain how the load force is transferred back to the source.

 

[Prajna]

To add a little more to my last comment, with, say, a sprag clutch, the source will feel the load while it is driving it but I believe that in this arrangement that is not necessarily the case, or rather, the there is at best limited feedback because the feedback is perpendicular to the disc. The rest of the feedback is diverted into resistance forces between the magnets and, I would think, dissipated there.

 

[Prajna]

Gotta dl some 3d software but no data atm. Tomorrow I'll visit a friend who has WiFi and find something. Meanwhile, here's a better picture:

 

[Onoff]

Gotta dl some 3d software

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[Dev]

Or tinkercad or fusion 360.