Curious device

[Dave-sparks]

@Dave-sparks, when was Newton philosophising? What did he say about magnets? Where do magnets fit in classical mechanics?

It doesn't matter when, the laws of physics Newton described apply regardless of when something is made.

The fact you are using magnets which were studied and written about after Newton died does not change the fact that the laws Newton described still apply to the machine.

The laws of magnetism existed when Newton was alive, they just hadn't been described by a human yet.

You can't pick and choose which laws of physics apply to your machine!

 

[Prajna]

It doesn't matter when, the laws of physics Newton described apply regardless of when something is made.

The fact you are using magnets which were studied and written about after Newton died does not change the fact that the laws Newton described still apply to the machine.

The laws of magnetism existed when Newton was alive, they just hadn't been described by a human yet.

You can't pick and choose which laws of physics apply to your machine!

Sure enough. But it is possible that we don't fully understand magnetism, despite that Lord Kelvin (I believe it was) saying that we understood 99% of science and there are only a few small details to tie down. I don't know of anyone having studied a system with quite this arrangement before and even if my intuition about it is wide of the mark it is still a very interesting thing to explore.

 

[Maker]

Even looking at it as simply a transmission system rather than some kind of perpetual motion machine they seem hesitant to want to investigate it.

I think the hesitance to investigate is just a lack of interest, it's just a convoluted mechanism to turn a shaft, perhaps interesting as a mechanical model for a mantle piece but it's not a solution to any problem. It doesn't take any maths or a physics degree to know it's going to be less efficient, and far bulkier, than a pair of gears, so what's the point in it? You insist it's interesting, but I don't see it.

 

[Prajna]

I think the hesitance to investigate is just a lack of interest, it's just a convoluted mechanism to turn a shaft, perhaps interesting as a mechanical model for a mantle piece but it's not a solution to any problem. It doesn't take any maths or a physics degree to know it's going to be less efficient, and far bulkier, than a pair of gears, so what's the point in it? You insist it's interesting, but I don't see it.

That remains to be seen. Can you explain exactly what is happening in this system? There has been plenty of speculation (including by me) but nobody has begun to describe the relationships between the forces in this system yet. If the physicists aren't interested then I think it shows lack of understanding of what is actually going on here.

 

[MattF]

If the physicists aren't interested then I think it shows lack of understanding of what is actually going on here.

Not necessarily. The blinkered viewpoint/thinking can also apply from another angle. Just because something appears revolutionary doesn't mean it is. They may be ignoring it for good reason: i.e: They think/realise it's novelty value only.

Logic/thinking needs to be very open from every angle to truly start seeing possibilities, or lack of.

Simply put: Play around with it & see where it leads. Therein lay your answers.

 

[dave h 2]

That remains to be seen. Can you explain exactly what is happening in this system? There has been plenty of speculation (including by me) but nobody has begun to describe the relationships between the forces in this system yet. If the physicists aren't interested then I think it shows lack of understanding of what is actually going on here.

So what you do is go away, build it and prove it works and them wrong. Why haven't you done that?

 

[Prajna]

So what you do is go away, build it and prove it works and them wrong. Why haven't you done that?

Simply because I haven't done it yet (don't have a 3d printer and limited materials atm) but I do plan to build it when I can. It's not a case of proving anyone wrong, rather that I'd like to understand what's happening in this device.

 

[Prajna]

You move the input. Against the magnets. Force in. After overcoming that, the magnets move, force out

Thanks for your detailed analysis. Please add a few appropriate equations.

 

[voipio]

From the tests performed here, what was perceived to be the "cogging" force, seemed to be less than the repulsive force on the magnets by some margin. It needs proper measurement.

 

[Onoff]

If the magnets have a force of 1kg then a pair of them will push apart with a force of 2kg.

Is that strictly true? If both magnets are sat on a surface then there's both air resistance and friction between the magnet and surface. Even with both suspended on strings there's pivot point friction then air resistance. I would suggest the pushing apart force is therefore <2kg.

 

[Onoff]

Simply because I haven't done it yet (don't have a 3d printer and limited materials atm) but I do plan to build it when I can. It's not a case of proving anyone wrong, rather that I'd like to understand what's happening in this device.

Lots of us on here with 3D printers that would be happy to print suff for you I'm sure.

 

[Prajna]

I have to say, people, that it is very encouraging that you are (mostly) prepared to discuss this in an intelligent and civilized manner. That, so far, the physics fraternity are not prepared to entertain questions related to it seems to say something about the physics fraternity.

 

[hotponyshoes]

Is that strictly true? If both magnets are sat on a surface then there's both air resistance and friction between the magnet and surface. Even with both suspended on strings there's pivot point friction then air resistance. I would suggest the pushing apart force is therefore <2kg.

No it's not true.
As you say, there will be losses.
So power in will always be more than power out.
Unless I'm wrong about the force on the wheel and there is some science I am unaware of that means it takes less force to push/pull a bit of metal in/out of a magnetic field than the equivalent push/pull of that magnetic field.

 

[Arc Tourist]

Any link to the video?

It's titled : "Forbidden technologies and the silencing of their inventions", on YouTube.

 

[Prajna]

No it's not true.
As you say, there will be losses.
So power in will always be more than power out.
Unless I'm wrong about the force on the wheel and there is some science I am unaware of that means it takes less force to push/pull a bit of metal in/out of a magnetic field than the equivalent push/pull of that magnetic field.

That is exactly what my intuition suggests, @hotponyshoes. Unless you misstated what you mean. Of course the push/pull will depend on the strength of the magnets whereas the induction drag may relate to the magnetic strength by a different factor.

 

[hotponyshoes]

Think of it this way,
Completely ignore any forms of resistance, ignore the weight of the magnet, ignore stiction, ignore the weight of the metal, ignore the fact that the metal may not be 100% magnetic...


A magnet with a 1kg pull stuck onto a piece of metal will need a pull of 1kg to remove it.

You can test this easily with a magnet, a bit of metal and a spring balance.

It does not matter if you try to pull the magnet off the metal or pull the metal off the magnet. It will still need 1kg.

Try pulling the bit of metal off sideways (as if it was a rotating wheel) and it will still take 1kg

It may well take far less than 2kg to slide a piece of metal between 2x1kg magnets with opposing fields as the field interaction will be far lower.
If this action then causes the magnets to attract with full force you will get 2kg of force on the output side.
But, this 2kg of force is only generated from the 2kg of magnetic attraction to the metal plate so you'll need 2kg of force to get it out again.

So, if it only takes 100g of force to push the plate in you'll use 2.1kg of input to get 2kg of output.

 

[Onoff]

I have to say, people, that it is very encouraging that you are (mostly) prepared to discuss this in an intelligent and civilized manner.

Or is it that you're amongst fellow nutters / God loves a trier?

That plus it's raining outside here and there's a load of rubbish on the telly.

Only kidding, keep the conversation going, keeps the grey matter ticking over.

 

[Morris]

It's titled : "Forbidden technologies and the silencing of their inventions", on YouTube.

I managed to watch the first "invention ". A levitation platform made by gluing beetle parts to it's underside which could then lift 300 metres and reach (potentially!) 1500kph. It also made the rider invisible from below. All from a man with no qualifications.
Seems perfectly legit to me.

 

[Morris]

The input is an eddy current brake. The losses at this point alone make it pointless.

 

[Prajna]

Think of it this way,
Completely ignore any forms of resistance, ignore the weight of the magnet, ignore stiction, ignore the weight of the metal, ignore the fact that the metal may not be 100% magnetic...


A magnet with a 1kg pull stuck onto a piece of metal will need a pull of 1kg to remove it.

You can test this easily with a magnet, a bit of metal and a spring balance.

It does not matter if you try to pull the magnet off the metal or pull the metal off the magnet. It will still need 1kg.

Try pulling the bit of metal off sideways (as if it was a rotating wheel) and it will still take 1kg

It may well take far less than 2kg to slide a piece of metal between 2x1kg magnets with opposing fields as the field interaction will be far lower.
If this action then causes the magnets to attract with full force you will get 2kg of force on the output side.
But, this 2kg of force is only generated from the 2kg of magnetic attraction to the metal plate so you'll need 2kg of force to get it out again.

So, if it only takes 100g of force to push the plate in you'll use 2.1kg of input to get 2kg of output.

The magnets never actually stick to the disc because their movement is restricted by the swash cylinder. We need a formula to calculate the inductive drag on the disc and a formula to calculate the push/pull forces.