Curious device

[Prajna]

Another question. What speed range are you anticipating you would run the input at?

I've no idea yet. I imagine that there will be a limit to the input speed, above which the magnets won't move the full distance of their stroke.

 

[Guineafowl]

Well, I asked on a physics forum about the physics of flux switching transferring power, because I can’t find the relevant equations, but in reassuring the forum that this is not a free energy device, the thread got closed for discussion/debunking of free energy devices.

Slightly miffed, I’ve sent a request for it to be reopened.

@Prajna I hope you don’t mind, but I copied your sketch over, to make the question clearer.

 

[Arc Tourist]

( An interesting related video, but would not upload. )

 

[voipio]

( An interesting related video, but would not upload. )

Any link to the video?

 

[Prajna]

Well, I asked on a physics forum about the physics of flux switching transferring power, because I can’t find the relevant equations, but in reassuring the forum that this is not a free energy device, the thread got closed for discussion/debunking of free energy devices.

Slightly miffed, I’ve sent a request for it to be reopened.

@Prajna I hope you don’t mind, but I copied your sketch over, to make the question clearer.

You're most welcome, @Guineafowl, and thank you. I don't claim it's free energy (though I may have cheekily hinted that it may be) and I consider it a kind of transmission system with some interesting, nay curious, properties.

 

[Guineafowl]

You're most welcome, @Guineafowl, and thank you. I don't claim it's free energy (though I may have cheekily hinted that it may be) and I consider it a kind of transmission system with some interesting, nay curious, properties.

Here’s the thread: https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/magnetic-repulsion-machine.1060720/#post-7066381

I’ve PM’d a defence of the thread, and got ‘the device is useless and looks like a perpetual motion machine’. If you don’t know the answer, one way to cover this is to attack the question.

I’ve been on that forum for over a decade, and have seen any number of new users being given sullen, unhelpful replies by a small number of intellectual bullies, some of whom are moderators. When the OP, understandably, gets frustrated the thread is closed and the OP often banned.

Thanks to the moderators on here for not being like that.

 

[voipio]

Here’s the thread: https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/magnetic-repulsion-machine.1060720/#post-7066381

I’ve PM’d a defence of the thread, and got ‘the device is useless and looks like a perpetual motion machine’. If you don’t know the answer, one way to cover this is to attack the question.

I’ve been on that forum for over a decade, and have seen any number of new users being given sullen, unhelpful replies by a small number of intellectual bullies, some of whom are moderators. When the OP, understandably, gets frustrated the thread is closed and the OP often banned.

Thanks to the moderators on here for not being like that.

Oooh, I see what you mean.

 

[Dave-sparks]

Oh, and yes also regarding the distance the magnets move but I was quite impressed by how far they do move apart even using the cheap little magnets I used in my investigation.

Here is a pic of my initial test:

View attachment 440904

I attached two small magnets from a fly screen to a folded business card. You can see that the field holds them at a respectable distance.

A folded business card will spring back open like that without any magnets.

 

[Prajna]

Here’s the thread: https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/magnetic-repulsion-machine.1060720/#post-7066381

I’ve PM’d a defence of the thread, and got ‘the device is useless and looks like a perpetual motion machine’. If you don’t know the answer, one way to cover this is to attack the question.

I’ve been on that forum for over a decade, and have seen any number of new users being given sullen, unhelpful replies by a small number of intellectual bullies, some of whom are moderators. When the OP, understandably, gets frustrated the thread is closed and the OP often banned.

Thanks to the moderators on here for not being like that.

Wow! That is quite some statement from a bonafide physicist! I thought there were no such machines but for my curious device to look like one I guess there must be. I guess I can be forgiven for thinking so myself.

Thank you for your diligence. I guess all we can do is build it and see what its characteristics are.

I agree, splendid bunch of folk on here, particularly the mods.

 

[Prajna]

A folded business card will spring back open like that without any magnets.

Don't laugh, @Maker, he's right. But not so much.

 

[Guineafowl]

Oooh, I see what you mean.

Yes. I had a thread closed on there about 6 years ago for talking about making up a mains extension lead. Reopened on appeal.

 

[Dave-sparks]

Good reply, @hotponyshoes, but I'm not sure that Newton's 3rd law is the most useful formula to apply.

Useful or not Newtonian mechanics apply to the machine.

Regardless of what the magnets are doing or anything else it will obey the laws of physics as described by Newton's laws.

 

[Prajna]

Useful or not Newtonian mechanics apply to the machine.

Regardless of what the magnets are doing or anything else it will obey the laws of physics as described by Newton's laws.

@Dave-sparks, when was Newton philosophising? What did he say about magnets? Where do magnets fit in classical mechanics?

 

[Prajna]

Useful or not Newtonian mechanics apply to the machine.

Regardless of what the magnets are doing or anything else it will obey the laws of physics as described by Newton's laws.

To respond in a bit more detail, Newton lived from 1642 till 1726. Whilst electromagnetism was known about - at least in terms of lodestones and static electricity - it was not included in Newton's mechanics. Really the study of electromagnetism didn't begin in earnest until after Newton, with Ampere, Gilbert etc.

There was a discussion on the physics stackexchange about whether magnetism obeys Newton's 3rd law. Here is the link: https://physics.stackexchange.com/q...ns-3-textrd-law-and-the-conservation-of-momen

The problem is that we have been indoctrinated with a lot of dogma that we tend to reflexively regurgitate without careful examination. A superb example is the reaction to @Guineafowl's post on the physics forum. Unexamined assumptions block our discovery of stuff and discoveries often happen when someone begins to question whether entrenched dogma really does reflect reality.

 

[hotponyshoes]

It's a machine that transfers power via motion. Standard stuff that follows the rules.

If the magnets have a force of 1kg then a pair of them will push apart with a force of 2kg.
If you can push a metal plate between them and change that 2kg of push by 100% into 2kg of pull then you will need a force of 2kg to move the plate back out of the way again.

Magnetic fields loose strength over distance fairly rapidly.
If you actually build the model you will find that the plate needs to be thick enough to get the full 2kg from the magnets.
If it is thick enough then you will loose the full 2kg push when you move to open space.

You could improve the design by tapering the lead-in & lead-out of the slots. You could reduce the effects of surface friction by fitting non-magnetic roller bearings to the outer edge of the magnet holders and running those on the inner surface of the disc.

You'll also want some sort of linkage to keep the magnets parrallel through the travel to get full efficiency out of them.

I think the biggest problem with construction will be overcoming the friction on the grooves of the drum and that's if you can actually work out how to make it in the first place!

 

[Prajna]

It's a machine that transfers power via motion. Standard stuff that follows the rules.

If the magnets have a force of 1kg then a pair of them will push apart with a force of 2kg.
If you can push a metal plate between them and change that 2kg of push by 100% into 2kg of pull then you will need a force of 2kg to move the plate back out of the way again.

Magnetic fields loose strength over distance fairly rapidly.
If you actually build the model you will find that the plate needs to be thick enough to get the full 2kg from the magnets.
If it is thick enough then you will loose the full 2kg push when you move to open space.

You could improve the design by tapering the lead-in & lead-out of the slots. You could reduce the effects of surface friction by fitting non-magnetic roller bearings to the outer edge of the magnet holders and running those on the inner surface of the disc.

You'll also want some sort of linkage to keep the magnets parrallel through the travel to get full efficiency out of them.

I think the biggest problem with construction will be overcoming the friction on the grooves of the drum and that's if you can actually work out how to make it in the first place!

The drum or, as I like to call it, the swash cylinder, is easy to make: take two tubes where one fits inside the other and make two cuts in the outer tube at 45 Deg (say), at 90 deg to each other, one near the top of the tube and one near the bottom. Then slide those sections onto the inner tube leaving a gap between the sections. For preference, change the cut angle at the top and bottom of the cuts so they are perpendicular to the tube. The levers can have bearings on the pins. I think that should be mechanically reasonable.

 

[Onoff]

I have a feeling that discussions about perpetual motion could go on and on.

 

[Seadog]

To respond in a bit more detail, Newton lived from 1642 till 1726. Whilst electromagnetism was known about - at least in terms of lodestones and static electricity - it was not included in Newton's mechanics. Really the study of electromagnetism didn't begin in earnest until after Newton, with Ampere, Gilbert etc.

There was a discussion on the physics stackexchange about whether magnetism obeys Newton's 3rd law. Here is the link: https://physics.stackexchange.com/q...ns-3-textrd-law-and-the-conservation-of-momen

The problem is that we have been indoctrinated with a lot of dogma that we tend to reflexively regurgitate without careful examination. A superb example is the reaction to @Guineafowl's post on the physics forum. Unexamined assumptions block our discovery of stuff and discoveries often happen when someone begins to question whether entrenched dogma really does reflect reality.

Lets not mention Professor Eric Laithwaite, and his ideas that gyroscopes could be used as anti-gravity devices, into the mix. Look what yhat did for his career

 

[Prajna]

It's a machine that transfers power via motion. Standard stuff that follows the rules.

If the magnets have a force of 1kg then a pair of them will push apart with a force of 2kg.
If you can push a metal plate between them and change that 2kg of push by 100% into 2kg of pull then you will need a force of 2kg to move the plate back out of the way again.

Magnetic fields loose strength over distance fairly rapidly.
If you actually build the model you will find that the plate needs to be thick enough to get the full 2kg from the magnets.
If it is thick enough then you will loose the full 2kg push when you move to open space.

You could improve the design by tapering the lead-in & lead-out of the slots. You could reduce the effects of surface friction by fitting non-magnetic roller bearings to the outer edge of the magnet holders and running those on the inner surface of the disc.

You'll also want some sort of linkage to keep the magnets parrallel through the travel to get full efficiency out of them.

I think the biggest problem with construction will be overcoming the friction on the grooves of the drum and that's if you can actually work out how to make it in the first place!

As for the transfer of forces, I'm not sure it is as simple as you describe. My feeling is that the rotor is influenced by inductive drag while a 'finger' is passing through the field, and, of course there is attraction into the field both on entrance and exit of the field which should cancel each other. But the inductive drag is related to the power of the magnets, geometry of the finger and it's speed through the field. On the other hand, the system of attracting/repelling magnets is calculated differently and not all parameters are shared between the two parts of the device. I may be completely wrong, of course, and it may be that both sub systems are directly and completely related but there is still much analysis to be done. In any case, it's a fascinating device to investigate and seems to have made some physicists a tad nervous. Even looking at it as simply a transmission system rather than some kind of perpetual motion machine they seem hesitant to want to investigate it.

 

[MattF]

Unexamined assumptions block our discovery of stuff and discoveries often happen when someone begins to question whether entrenched dogma really does reflect reality.

That's what blocks most people. Accepted values, stuff entrenched in them whilst growing up etc. Few have desire/ability to look outside that world, & realise that what they thought they knew isn't necessarily so.