Curious device

[Morris]

Oh, and yes also regarding the distance the magnets move but I was quite impressed by how far they do move apart even using the cheap little magnets I used in my investigation.

Here is a pic of my initial test:

View attachment 440904

I attached two small magnets from a fly screen to a folded business card. You can see that the field holds them at a respectable distance.

What happens when you put a sheet of steel between them? If you get no movement you have your answer. If you do get movement you can explore further.

 

[Prajna]

It enters the system as rotation at the input shaft, and leaves the system as heat generated through friction in bearings and slides, and through resistive heating caused by eddy currents in the finger wheel.

Yes, it enters the system as rotation of the disc and some is lost via eddy current losses and friction in the couplings but most of it exits the system via the output shaft.

More interesting is that the energy can only flow from input to output. If we try to reverse the flow by driving the swash cylinder rather than the rotor then it is blocked. This seems to make the system asymmetric and Noether's theorem seems to suggest that conservation of energy only applies where there is symmetry. But then I'm not really a physicist.

 

[Guineafowl]

The linkage is easy to see with the mag motor because it is a direct inline connection, like a magnetic axle, if you like. In this arrangement reciprocation of the magnets by driving the swash cylinder will not drive the rotor. I wonder if this breaks the symmetry of the load feedback so that it is not linked back to the input.

Right, so what you’re looking for is a physics explanation of the work done on the magnets by the rotor as it switches reluctance.

I’ll hit the books…

It’s easy enough to describe the build-up, then return of magnetic potential energy if you rotate the disc between two fixed opposing magnets - cogging - but in your machine, energy is being tapped off by doing work on the magnets.

 

[Prajna]

What happens when you put a sheet of steel between them? If you get no movement you have your answer. If you do get movement you can explore further.

I get movement.

 

[Prajna]

Right, so what you’re looking for is a physics explanation of the work done on the magnets by the rotor as it switches reluctance.

I’ll hit the books…

It’s easy enough to describe the build-up, then return of magnetic potential energy if you rotate the disc between two fixed opposing magnets - cogging - but in your machine, energy is being tapped off by doing work on the magnets.

Exactly.

 

[8ob]

I get movement.

Bowel?

Bob

 

[8ob]

Exactly.

Is this an experiment with the hope of some sort of commercial/monetary gain or just a toy?

Bob

 

[Prajna]

Would you not need to impart energy to get the finger disk going (or it will be stuck in place by the magnets) at which point the energy imparted will be slowly lost over time due to losses until the magnets lock up the finger disk again.

Yes, the device won't do anything without input energy (to turn the rotor). Think of it as a transmission rather than a motor. Yes there will be losses in the system but there may also be gains, if the work done by the magnets is more than the work required to turn the rotor (including eddy current losses). Of course, in theory it shouldn't produce more energy than it uses (or we'd have to show where that energy comes from) but ... in theory practice and theory are the same thing but in practice they're not.

 

[hotponyshoes]

What you do have looks like an interesting way of changing the torque on the output compared to the input without using gears

Would be a way of making a torque-limited drive.
Or a clutch that never wears out.
Seems overly complicated to achieve that though.

 

[Morris]

Would be a way of making a torque-limited drive.
Or a clutch that never wears out.
Seems overly complicated to achieve that though.

I suspect the torque limiting will be it's main feature...

 

[Prajna]

Is this an experiment with the hope of some sort of commercial/monetary gain or just a toy?

Bob

Let's just say it's a curiosity atm. I'm not a business man, which is why I'm disclosing everything rather than exploring it in secret. If it's worth anything then I'd rather the world benefit from it than that anyone profits from it

 

[Prajna]

You have to overcome the magnets to turn the input in the first place to then in turn put energy back into the system and into the magnets. Forget the swash thing. You have energy in, energy out, you turn the input, the magnets move, but it is 1:1 (ignoring losses). And you have losses. No gain here

In theory. But then I'm not sure we've got to the bottom of how energy is being transferred in this arrangement. It is not as simple as a straight magnetic coupling.

 

[Onoff]

If it's worth anything then I'd rather the world benefit from it than that anyone profits from it

It'll never happen. Last thing you'll hear is the black helicopters before you have an accident / disappear

 

[hotponyshoes]

In theory. But then I'm not sure we've got to the bottom of how energy is being transferred in this arrangement. It is not as simple as a straight magnetic coupling.

If it works as shown the energy will be transferred via the magnetic fields.
It's basically a wireless energy pump.
However, there is nothing in the system to create energy so IN=OUT-LOSS

It may have a multitude of applications but it's not particularly efficient at transferring energy wirelessly.
You could shine a light down a tube to illuminate a solar panel at the other end if you wanted a basic isolator but that would have the advantage of no moving parts.

 

[Prajna]

If it works as shown the energy will be transferred via the magnetic fields.
It's basically a wireless energy pump.
However, there is nothing in the system to create energy so IN=OUT-LOSS

It may have a multitude of applications but it's not particularly efficient at transferring energy wirelessly.
You could shine a light down a tube to illuminate a solar panel at the other end if you wanted a basic isolator but that would have the advantage of no moving parts.

Well, all I can do is to build it and do some tests and measurements to see if our assumptions are confirmed. We have all been indoctrinated to think so but science advances when scientists test their assumptions.

 

[Maker]

But then I'm not really a physicist.

You don't say...

 

[Prajna]

Btw, all these atomic etc physicists are being very quiet. I don't know if they're stumped or busy or what.

 

[Morris]

Another question. What speed range are you anticipating you would run the input at?

 

[Onoff]

Look what happened to Nicola Tesla!

Just as you can "cannae ignore the laws of physics", you can't upset the status quo.

 

[Guineafowl]

Another question. What speed range are you anticipating you would run the input at?

It would have to be quite slow, or the input would skip the motion of the output, I would think, making the cylinder oscillate rather than rotate.

It might be more successful with just one finger, ie just a half disc rotating.