Characteristics of a "Bad Rod"?

[Muggins the Mug]

Hi folks,

Whilst my welding experience is very limited, I've had some bad welding rods (mostly SIPs and Lidl "specials"). If we remove the variables like poor technique, rubbish welders, etc. how would you classify a "bad rod"? Secondly, what causes a rod to be "bad", is it the filler metal, the coating or a combination of both?

Just curious.

Regards,

Ian.

 

[irondarren]

Much to do with a welding rod is the coating, how it melts off to produce a protective slag coating to stop oxidization. The quality of the steel used will also have an effect. Notice how on many of the cheap welding rods the outside coating is very thick. And you just paid X per kilo for them. Shame you got more flux than filler rod.

 

[Muggins the Mug]

Hi Darren,

I've still got a load of those el cheapo Lidl "specials", I'll compare the flux coating on them to the Phoenix and other decent rods I've got.

Regards,

Ian.

 

[asmeix6g]

moisture content is one of the biggest factors rods are faily hydroscopic the flux absorbs water and then they are scrap. thats why you have heated quivers to keep the moister off them. some rods are just crap though Calor brand are the worst iv ever used they were made with too much flux and it was just a nightmare to use

 

[GeorgeB]

Whilst my welding experience is very limited, I've had some bad welding rods (mostly SIPs and Lidl "specials").

I saw some of the Lidl specials (6013 electrodes) for sale a couple of days ago and bought them, mainly to see if they are not so bad after all. I'd be surprised if they are. Most stuff I buy from Lidl is very good indeed.

Originally Posted by irondarren
"I think most 7018's will run AC and will run 50v ocv. Simon they can be real hard work, if they get damp its like trying to weld with a wet lettuce leaf. Need to keep them dry and make sure they are dry prior to use"

MadK then said: "Don't say that to George he will try just to prove you wrong."

MadK - I hope my Lidl assessment will suffice, as above. Unfortunately, I don't know where I could buy some 7018s because, I may trust Lidl but I don't trust my local welding supplier.

 

[TechnicAl]

Much to do with a welding rod is the coating, how it melts off to produce a protective slag coating to stop oxidization. The quality of the steel used will also have an effect. Notice how on many of the cheap welding rods the outside coating is very thick. And you just paid X per kilo for them. Shame you got more flux than filler rod.

Im not sure of the relative prices these days but back in the good old days I used to make welding rods (80s and early 90s). At that time the cost of the flux was higher than the cost of steel so the thinner the flux the cheaper the rod.

Most 6013s are around 2 parts steel 1 part flux.

The costing thickness is usually adjusted to make the rod better in a particluar position ie a thinner coated rod is usually better in the vertical than a thick coated
The thick coated will probably be better in the flat.

The different brands of rods will have different coating "recipes" but some rods (from the same manufacturer) will have the same recipe and perhaps 3 different coating thickeness ratios, thin for vertical, medium for all positional and thick for downhand.

Some of the problems with rods are due to their design background. A rod for one market may not suit another market but they will still be imported into the wrong market because they are cheap.

I can tell you a story. We were once asked to make some rods for the German market. We had all the information and we made some trial batches. They welded great so we sent them over to our German friends. The reports we got back were incredibly bad, poor appearance and porosity. I didnt believe it, I thought someone was trying to sabotage us for some reason. I filled my car with "virgin" rods and drove over to Germany. All fired up I laced into my German colleagues telling them that someone was "pulling their leg" and they were falling for it. We then did some welding. They were right the rods were awful. Eventaully we put it down to the difference in welding sets, OCVs and input voltage. We had a machine made that gave us the German characteristics but from a UK supply and we had no more problems.

 

[GeorgeB]

I just tried my Lidl electrodes for the first time and, as I expected, they are very good, especially at Lidl's low price.

I used one of the bits of 6mm thick steel which we used for January's arc weld meeting. The first image shows 2 welds done at that meeting; definately with a DC machine, and probably the Lorch. There's nothing wrong with the Lorch welds but, then again, I can't see much wrong with the Lidl weld, being the 3rd strip in the second photo. The Lidl weld is a bit thinner because larger rods were probably used at the meeting.

So the comparison is probably between:

(R1 and R2): Lorch, cost approx £2500, DC output, branded rods, top notch auto helmet

and:

R3): Cosmo Arc 150, cost £35, AC output, Lidl rods, el cheapo manual helmet

I acknowledge that the £2500 Lorch TIG/MMA unit was probably better than needed for a simple MMA (arc) weld. One could probably 'get away' with an entry level Lorch costing 'only' £400 or £500. I stress I am not knocking Lorch, especially for professional use. All I'm saying is that the Cosmo/Lidl weld isn't bad either, and for a fraction of the cost.

 

[matt1978]

 

[Archie]

Remembering (again) to bear in mind George that the £2500 you keep quoting is for an AC/DC TIG unit that happens to be able to do MMA. As I believe has been said before, a DC only pure MMA unit would be more like £400-500.

 

[matt1978]

I don't think Jeromy Beadle really died, he just changed his name to George B........as this has surely go to be a wind up????

Nice one George

Also I wasn't at the 'Arc off' but I did hear that your beloved AC Buzzbox, did go up in smoke after welding for a couple of mins at high amps...........you said it was because you had messed with the wiring...........it couldn't just be because the machine was cack could it??

 

[GeorgeB]

I don't think Jeromy Beadle really died, he just changed his name to George B........as this has surely go to be a wind up???? Nice one George

Wind up? If the group would like to reconvene at Aero's place or anywhere else, I'm sure I can show that this result is no wind up. Neither am I claiming it's anything special. This thread was started by Ian (Muggins) saying or implying that Lidl rods are rubbish. That's all I wanted to check. Seeing as I don't have a Lorch, I chose to use the Cosmo.

 

[TechnicAl]

To be fair if George is happy with his Lidl combination, so be it. I think he is aware of its limitations and he can live with them.

I think there are those amongst us who prefer something better, I suspect that the Cosmo will have gone to that "great workshop in the sky" and the Lorch (even the cheap one) will be around longer than George himself.

Upto a point the rods dont know what is melting them and how much it cost, therefore, the appearance of the weld is down to the combination of the properties of the rods and the man holding the pliers.

Who knows where Lidl are getting their rods. They could be a well known main stream brand. Its not certain that they are chinese just because they are cheap. Remember the "branded" products could have passed through a few sets of hands before they reach you.

Personally I find that what ****** me off about the cheap stuff is that it always fails in the middle of something you want to finish. Then you have to wait or go and fetch the replacement. Personally I usually go over the top and end up buying Bosch Blue. Done it today, bought a sander for £20, it broke after about 12 months, in the middle of a job last night. Replaced it today with a Bosch at £76.

 

[GeorgeB]

To be fair if George is happy with his Lidl combination, so be it. I think he is aware of its limitations and he can live with them. I think there are those amongst us who prefer something better, I suspect that the Cosmo will have gone to that "great workshop in the sky" and the Lorch (even the cheap one) will be around longer than George himself.

Thank you for raising some valid points, rather than pouring ridicule on my modest results.

Yes, I'm more than aware of my limitations. If I can get a half-decent result like that with Lidl rods and a buzz box, then anyone can. I said I rated the Lorch for professional use. Nobody is suggesting that pro welders be re-equipped with Cosmo 150s and Lidl rods, like Matt seems to be saying. For anyone who prefers spending more money, fine. All I'm saying is that it's easy to get a result like R3 in photo 2, with Lidl rods.

As for the £2500 Lorch outlasting the £35 Cosmo, I find that most unlikely, even if both were used daily within their duty cycles. The odds are stacked against the Lorch, purely because of the special features and mass of complex electronics built in. The odds are stacked in favour of the simple transformer in the Cosmo because there's so little to go wrong (as long as I don't mess around with the wiring).

 

[TechnicAl]

£35 for the Cosmo............flippin heck
How much are the rods....do you know the Kg price

 

[simon718]

i would imagine if i was to use my powercraft day in day out, it would die in short order, more than willing to accept that, especially when continuously tripping it on the thermal cutout. a good quality inverter, however, i would expect to take all sorts of punishments, especially the lorches with their built-in dropability (wouldn't be willing to test that out however if i bought one )

 

[Archie]

thank you for raising some valid points, rather than pouring ridicule on my modest results.

Yes, i'm more than aware of my limitations. If i can get a half-decent result like that with lidl rods and a buzz box, then anyone can. I said i rated the lorch for professional use. Nobody is suggesting that pro welders be re-equipped with cosmo 150s and lidl rods, like matt seems to be saying. For anyone who prefers spending more money, fine. All i'm saying is that it's easy to get a result like r3 in photo 2, with lidl rods.

As for the £2500 lorch outlasting the £35 cosmo, i find that most unlikely, even if both were used daily within their duty cycles. The odds are stacked against the lorch, purely because of the special features and mass of complex electronics built in. The odds are stacked in favour of the simple transformer in the cosmo because there's so little to go wrong (as long as i don't mess around with the wiring).

aaaarrrgh!!!

 

[matt1978]

As for the £2500 Lorch outlasting the £35 Cosmo, I find that most unlikely, even if both were used daily within their duty cycles. The odds are stacked against the Lorch, purely because of the special features and mass of complex electronics built in. The odds are stacked in favour of the simple transformer in the Cosmo because there's so little to go wrong (as long as I don't mess around with the wiring).

Tell you what George, you bring your Cosmo to the Forum meet and we will do a endurance test against one of the Lorch H series inverters and see which one gives up first.

Why do you insist on keep quoting the £2500 unit, when it has been explained to you lots of times that that particular machine is a top of the line 220 amp AC/DC tig inverter, that just happens to be able to MMA weld.

The proper comparison should be a H140, which can be bought for about £350-£400.

I don't think that the fact that you messed with the wiring made any difference to your machine going up in smoke, the real reason was because you used it on a higher welding amperage than it could cope with, but seen as you had made such a fuss about the good performance about the Aldi welder, it would of been embarressing to admit it was purely down to product failure............if you did make such a hash of the wiring and that was the cause, then why are you insistant on making the modifcations to your house wiring without worry that your going to mess that up?

 

[TechnicAl]

Tell you what George, you bring your Cosmo to the Forum meet and we will do a endurance test against one of the Lorch H series inverters and see which one gives up first.

QUOTE]

I love these head-to-heads. Ive seen them go dramatically wrong. There was a famous incident at Weldex a number of years ago. BTW I wasnt involved.


PS Not that I think the Cosmo will outlast the Lorch but it would be funny (embarrassing) if it did

 

[matt1978]

Tell you what George, you bring your Cosmo to the Forum meet and we will do a endurance test against one of the Lorch H series inverters and see which one gives up first.

QUOTE]

I love these head-to-heads. Ive seen them go dramatically wrong. There was a famous incident at Weldex a number of years ago. BTW I wasnt involved.


PS Not that I think the Cosmo will outlast the Lorch but it would be funny (embarrassing) if it did

Yeah it would be very funny and also embarresing and with man made items its always possible that something can/will go wrong, but I will take the chance

When I worked for the 'Red' (not Murex or Lincoln ) company, a machine literally blew up on my first demo, talk about embarresing, especially seen as I had given him all the speil about Pulse inverter migs being the way to go... but luckily the guy saw the funny side and give us another chance....

What happened at Weldex?

 

[TechnicAl]

Weldex ?

Have to be careful but, very basically, there was a big launch of a new product and it turned out to be a damp squib.

The lauch involved trumpets etc, dancing girls and lots of invited guests.

I darent mention names.