Case hardening compound

[ronan]

You cannot get Kasenit anymore, its not made i don't think. But i have found this Beta superior case hardening compound online, Anyone use it ? Is it any use ?

BETA CASE HARDENING COMPOUND.

www.knighton-tools.co.uk

 

[mcostello]

Viagra in a can now?

 

[Screwdriver]

You cannot get Kasenit anymore, its not made i don't think. But i have found this Beta superior case hardening compound online, Anyone use it ? Is it any use ?

BETA CASE HARDENING COMPOUND.

www.knighton-tools.co.uk

It would be hard to believe it didn't work. I have no direct experience of this product but plenty of anecdotal evidence that DIY case hardening is a feasible process. Obviously you would need to follow instructions to the letter regards temperatures/timing etc.

 

[Onoff]

Make your own?

404 | Model Engineer & Workshop Magazine

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www.model-engineer.co.uk

"...adding about 1 gallon of urine after the box is packed".

As Roy Castle would have said...

 

[Agroshield]

As Roy Castle would have said...

A gallon in one sitting standing would indeed be a record breaker.

 

[merryman]

I was told that sugar works just like Kasenit, and tried it once, trouble is, it is so long ago I don't remember if it worked or not. Easy and cheap enough to try though.

 

[Brad93]

Bone char, barium carbonate, sodium ferrocynante

You can get the components it's just the ratios that are unknown

 

[Agroshield]

Have a look at:

Internet Archive Search: case hardening

The two that stand out are by Brearley and the pamphlet by Everitt.

 

[Seadog]

I have some Kasenit if someone wants to run a chemical analysis on some

 

[bourbon]

I remember using Kasenit at school, too many years ago now.

 

[frank horton]

dont u just heat the metal until its red then dunk it in the powder......
did some years ago on a cam follower.....just so long ago, that and brain fog.....
more coffee nurse......hahaha....

 

[merryman]

dont u just heat the metal until its red then dunk it in the powder......

Yes then, if I remember rightly, re-heat to red and plunge in water or oil. The problem is you can't buy Kasenit apparently.

 

[Onoff]

Do I remember a box at college referred to as "powdered leather"?


Used to also often blue things by heating to cherry red then quenching in oil or burying in sawdust. Does that have any hardening effect?

 

[hotponyshoes]

A blacksmith I knew regularly asked me to collect horses hoof for him for case hardening.
He preferred the little shavings that the rasp produced rather than the big lumps that got chopped off so it was a bit of a pain to try and collect him a bucket full!

He would put his part in a metal box with them, give it a rough purge with his mig torch then weld a lid on. Heat it to dull red then leave it sat on the edge.of the coal fire all day.

I am pretty sure something else was put in the mix as well but no idea what?

 

[Alan Reynolds]

2 parts powdered carbon ( ground up charcoal - BBQ )

2 parts molasses ( Black Treacle is the nearest available )

1 part baking powder ( Bicarb of Soda - Sodium Bicarb )

Mix all together (Nice sticky goo) - Heat steel and coat in mix - leave to cool till able to touch - reheat and re dunk - take out of mixture before cool and wire brush.

May need couple of treatments (depends on steel and thickness of skin treatment required)

This was method used by my grandfather in the early 40/50s - He was a Coach Builder and Wheelwright.

Best to do treatment outside as the fumes are a bit pungent.

 

[Screwdriver]

dont u just heat the metal until its red then dunk it in the powder......
did some years ago on a cam follower.....just so long ago, that and brain fog.....
more coffee nurse......hahaha....

The process is a lot simpler than that and yet the mechanism for it is very complex. Carbon atoms diffuse into the iron lattice like water soaking into a sponge. Typically for case hardening, you'll be lucky to get fractions of a mm but Google suggests up to 1.5mm depth.

In order for that to happen, carbon needs to be present at the surface while the iron is heated to its non-magnetic, hardening, curie point whatever you want to call it (they're not all the same thing but they're all around 900C for iron/steels). Then you keep it at that temperature for a specified period.

Carbon atoms are tiny compared to the large gaps in a metal crystal lattice so they can literally soak into the surface (not literally but they do diffuse into it).

Unless you're a chemist, alchemist, metallurgist etc. it might just as well be magic because the science behind hardening and effect of carbon doping is crazy difficult. Hence the old wives tales about using ground up socks, wing of bat, eye of newt etc because all you really need is a carbon rich coating and the only people who know how it is done have done it before and use whatever technique works for them.

For example, the traditional art of Japanese sword making is full of such rituals which also happen to include carbon rich coatings during the forging process which diffuses carbon to the metal while also removing other impurities. Over hundreds of years they found a technique that worked and stick with it (special clay, mixed with burned straw etc.).

I remember watching a really good clickspring video in which they do some case hardening with home made compound. I'll see if I can dig it up. My guess is the trick for the DIY version is to have the carbon stick to the metal while the workpiece is heated to bright orange (i.e.the curie point). That is more tricky that it sounds just from a practical mechanical perspective. Might be better off just buying a specialist compound and using that because they will have found a solution that works and give you the precise instructions for the particular mix they have supplied.

 

[hotponyshoes]

Is there actually any need to have the carbon source in contact with the metal?

When you are talking about atom sized items even direct contact is going to be a huge gap.
Presumably just having more carbon in the atmosphere around the metal would be just as good on a practical level.
And possibly make it easier to excluded any unwanted stuff (oxygen etc) at the same time.

Although, if trying to be practical, the cost of fuel to heat something now and it's probably cheaper just to buy the correct steel in the first place...

 

[Ross365]

Making a guess that not many of us have a real hardness tester at our disposal, are there any reliable "DIY" methods to assess hardness?
IIRC, the real ones push a diamond in to the surface under a precise load and the width of the imprint is measured under a microscope. There's a table of hardness v ident widths.

 

[Screwdriver]

Is there actually any need to have the carbon source in contact with the metal?

When you are talking about atom sized items even direct contact is going to be a huge gap.
Presumably just having more carbon in the atmosphere around the metal would be just as good on a practical level.
And possibly make it easier to excluded any unwanted stuff (oxygen etc) at the same time.

Although, if trying to be practical, the cost of fuel to heat something now and it's probably cheaper just to buy the correct steel in the first place...

No. My understanding is that you need a minimum density of free carbon for the diffusion to occur. The proximity is also important. Remember too that simply taking a high carbon steel up to its hardening temperature can allow carbon to diffuse OUT of the material.

<edit> having said "no" there may be a manufacturing process using high temperature in a (very) high pressure carbon rich atmosphere. I don't know for sure.

 

[zeppelin builder]

No. My understanding is that you need a minimum density of free carbon for the diffusion to occur. The proximity is also important. Remember too that simply taking a high carbon steel up to its hardening temperature can allow carbon to diffuse OUT of the material.

<edit> having said "no" there may be a manufacturing process using high temperature in a (very) high pressure carbon rich atmosphere. I don't know for sure.

think hi temp and hi pressure nitrogen atmosphere is nitriding /tuftriding