Car jump starting protection?

[JOEPRO]

I got my new Sealey mains charger booster today



It is a basic machine which works well for fully flat batteries. But it also doesn't have any form of surge protection that I can see.

Would something like this be much use?

Surge (ANTIZAP) Protector for Jump Leads

Surge Protector for Jump Leads (ANTIZAP) protects onboard electronics from voltage spikes. 12V & 24V systems - automotive, 4WD, commercial and marine

cardno.co.uk

I see others which are an item connected by 2x clamps but those don't make much sense to me. Probably better with something online is my thinking.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Laser-Tools-7827-Anti-Zap-Protector/dp/B0873SPWGX/ref=asc_df_B0873SPWGX?mcid=5ba973333f9731ea87f5910fc4f35978&th=1&psc=1&tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=697259790400&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6519659204360532337&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9211437&hvtargid=pla-911186240340&psc=1&gad_source=1

Automotive Surge Protector 12/24 Volt - Page 1

Automotive Surge Protector 12/24 Volt - Page 1

www.eevblog.com

 

[Ubique]

The battery is essentially a big capacitor, so will absorb most spikes. I'd suggest charging the battery, switching off the charger (or switching to a lower power mode) then starting the vehicle.
Maybe if you're really cautious, switch on high current loads before disconnecting a running vehicle from the charger / donor vehicle.

 

[bourbon]

We have these in the shop. We got bored on day and read the manual. according to it, If it has to do it's job, it effectively destroys itself.

 

[JOEPRO]

The battery is essentially a big capacitor, so will absorb most spikes. I'd suggest charging the battery, switching off the charger (or switching to a lower power mode) then starting the vehicle.
Maybe if you're really cautious, switch on high current loads before disconnecting a running vehicle from the charger / donor vehicle.

I did run into a problem today which may have been my fault I'm not sure

I connected this mains booster to my 1995 E320 coupe which has sat for about 12 years. 4 in my ownership. It's outside so all damp.

Tried the noco jump pack first and it turned the engine over fine.



After that I tried the mains booster. And when first connected I noticed some smoke from the area of the alternator.

I disconnected all including the bad condition battery. I noticed there now appeared to be a dead short between the car's battery terminals.....

I unhooked the alternator and that dead short went away. So I think the alternator was either damp, already on its way out or the booster blew it. I also hadn't fully tightened the battery terminals so that probably didn't help either. I have several spare alternators on shelf so not bothered about that bit really.

Afterwards I connected a good battery and the car is OK, turning over OK and trying to fire up. (No fuel tank this 4 years!)

So yeah, strange one. I guess I'll await one of my w124s with a low but known good battery before attempting the mains booster again. I would not use any booster on my S classes (except w221 which I don't care about it's not a classic) for fear of damage to electronics.

 

[JOEPRO]

The thing I do notice about the large sealey charger is that it's maybe not as dumb as I thought either.

It does turn itself down on the amp meter to virtually zero when a battery is fully charged. Which it also refers to in the manual



Curious as to what sort of control strategy it might have to lower the charge itself? Or maybe it's that the transformer responds to matching its rated output with the battery.

EDIT- AI to the rescue!

A transformer battery charger often slows down or "tapers off" towards the end of a charging cycle because as the battery voltage rises closer to the charger's output voltage, the current drawn by the battery decreases, resulting in a reduced power transfer from the transformer, causing the charging process to slow down significantly

 

[ajlelectronics]

Curious as to what sort of control strategy it might have to lower the charge itself?

As the battery charges, the charge current goes down to match due to the load reduction presented by the battery terminal voltage rising. The basic transformer and rectifier chargers will show the same effect. However they will not drop to a maintenance level normally, hence the advice to not charge for more than 14 hours at tenth rate.

 

[Kram]

Curious as to what sort of control strategy it might have to lower the charge itself?

Voltage will rise with a low amp draw. Many chargers will limit at 14.7v and consider that to be full.

 

[m_c]

After that I tried the mains booster. And when first connected I noticed some smoke from the area of the alternator.

I disconnected all including the bad condition battery. I noticed there now appeared to be a dead short between the car's battery terminals.....

I unhooked the alternator and that dead short went away. So I think the alternator was either damp, already on its way out or the booster blew it. I also hadn't fully tightened the battery terminals so that probably didn't help either. I have several spare alternators on shelf so not bothered about that bit really.

Afterwards I connected a good battery and the car is OK, turning over OK and trying to fire up. (No fuel tank this 4 years!)

So yeah, strange one. I guess I'll await one of my w124s with a low but known good battery before attempting the mains booster again. I would not use any booster on my S classes (except w221 which I don't care about it's not a classic) for fear of damage to electronics.

Most likely blown by over voltage, combined with some transients/voltage spikes.
The issue with a totally dead battery, is it's very likely high resistance, so the battery has no/limited ability to absorb charge and prevent the voltage rising quickly or absorb voltage spikes.
At least with a good battery, the battery will limit how quickly the voltage can rise as well as still absorbing spikes.

 

[JOEPRO]

Most likely blown by over voltage, combined with some transients/voltage spikes.
The issue with a totally dead battery, is it's very likely high resistance, so the battery has no/limited ability to absorb charge and prevent the voltage rising quickly or absorb voltage spikes.
At least with a good battery, the battery will limit how quickly the voltage can rise as well as still absorbing spikes.

Yes the battery in question is fubar which is a shame as only about 2 or 3 years old.

It'll not be used again and taken to scrappy shortly.

I have many other batteries anyway it was just being too ambitious to test the new jump starters!

I think I will use one of these GYS devices in the future when charging at high rate on any car. As bourbon said it seems like if they sense and absorb a surge the red led comes on and they have to be replaced. But a £22 surge device would be cheaper than an engine ECU for sure

https://www.amazon.co.uk/GYS-41318-Anti-arc-surge-protection/dp/B0072CIVBY/ref=pd_aw_subss_hxwSS2_sspa_mw_detail_m_sccl_5/258-2520434-0001464?pd_rd_w=BkC8G&content-id=amzn1.sym.2cace645-966e-4ed1-8d16-8d8d3792e180&pf_rd_p=2cace645-966e-4ed1-8d16-8d8d3792e180&pf_rd_r=BRKJN0N9V46MSD14MW4N&pd_rd_wg=5OJ94&pd_rd_r=106995c7-1261-4382-8b79-8ce7f2556741&pd_rd_i=B0072CIVBY&psc=1#aw-udpv3-customer-reviews_feature_div

 

[Kram]

Anyway, just get yourself a proper lipo jump starter. I dont understand why your bothering with these mains things.

If its for long term battery maintence outside, stick a solar charger on roof.

 

[ajlelectronics]

I think I will use one of these GYS devices in the future

I would like to see inside one, it needs to be a pretty substantial device to do as claimed. I suspect that it is an "Elephant repellant for the 'fridge".

 

[Ubique]

We routinely use Battery Support Units (BSU) which are not chargers, rather, they provide a constant 13.8VDC and whatever current the vehicle demands - great for diagnostics or programming though, chargers are for charging, jump start packs are for jump starting, Lithium packs provide a lot of 'bang' in a small package and are great for starting a known-good vehicle with a discharged starter battery, but if you need to power a vehicle for a short while (for example, whilst running a diagnostic read & clear) then they are not what you need as they cannot provide sufficient current for sufficient time at or above the minimum voltage systems will accept to behave themselves, for that, a conventional jump pack or 'truck battery & jump leads on a trolley' are your best option if you can't get mains power close enough to use a >50A charger or BSU

 

[JOEPRO]

Anyway, just get yourself a proper lipo jump starter. I dont understand why your bothering with these mains things.

I also need a very strong mains battery charger for diagnostics. That's why I really need one of the large mains units.

I have Noco and other small portable booster packs but it's not the same thing for providing reliable long term power when required.

S classes and similar cars with ignition on and engine not running during certain diagnostic sessions consume alot of power. Enough to drain the cars battery and a slave battery hooked up. Needs to have a mains charger of sufficient size to run the car and maintain voltage.

That's 95% of my intended use with this Sealey Start 660. Would be handy if it can jump start for the other small number of times when I'll have it near a car which needs a jump start instead of reaching for a battery jump pack.

 

[JOEPRO]

We routinely use Battery Support Units (BSU) which are not chargers, rather, they provide a constant 13.8VDC and whatever current the vehicle demands - great for diagnostics or programming though, chargers are for charging, jump start packs are for jump starting, Lithium packs provide a lot of 'bang' in a small package and are great for starting a known-good vehicle with a discharged starter battery, but if you need to power a vehicle for a short while (for example, whilst running a diagnostic read & clear) then they are not what you need as they cannot provide sufficient current for sufficient time at or above the minimum voltage systems will accept to behave themselves, for that, a conventional jump pack or 'truck battery & jump leads on a trolley' are your best option if you can't get mains power close enough to use a >50A charger or BSU

As above I think you get what I want this for!

The sealey has more than enough power on tap for what I need during diagnostic sessions. So that box is ticked.

This thread is just asking for thoughts on any additional surge protection that could be added and worth looking at. So far not found much except these mystery boxes which probably have very little in them so agree on that.

 

[Ubique]

Since I started mucking about with cars in the '80's, I've never had any issues with 'electronics' being fried by over voltage - and I'm including Maestro & Montego electronic ignition systems and all Jaguars 1990 onwards in that.
I have worked at several dealers where 'dead' vehicles have been brought in requiring a control module replacing due to 'suspected' jump starting, but no-one has ever been able to demonstrate either way how this happened - or not.
Dead control modules are a fact of electronic life, be it a phone, TV, cooker or car, IMO the cause is almost always going to be an internal defect (now the lessons of the 80's/90's/00's have been learnt and mitigations put in place) providing the starter battery is in good electrical health.

 

[ajlelectronics]

Since I started mucking about with cars in the '80's, I've never had any issues with 'electronics' being fried by over voltage - and I'm including Maestro & Montego electronic ignition systems and all Jaguars 1990 onwards in that.
I have worked at several dealers where 'dead' vehicles have been brought in requiring a control module replacing due to 'suspected' jump starting, but no-one has ever been able to demonstrate either way how this happened - or not.
Dead control modules are a fact of electronic life, be it a phone, TV, cooker or car, IMO the cause is almost always going to be an internal defect (now the lessons of the 80's/90's/00's have been learnt and mitigations put in place) providing the starter battery is in good electrical health.

^^^^^^^ Couldn't have said it better myself, but that doesn't sell Snake oil gadgetry of course.

 

[Ubique]

The big change in vehicle electronics is the widespread use of DC-DC converters rather than the voltage dividers of old.
I worked for the RAC for a while, we were given a good in-depth training on vehicle electrics (in terms of jump starting - probably 40% of callouts at the time) and the physics involved, particularly around the voltage regulation and also the chemistry of car batteries - AGM, Li-Ion and Lead-Calcium batteries were unknown at the time.

 

[Ubique]

Just to give an idea of the 'workshop' range, here's a few links to the various units we have - some manufacturers mandate specific units, most over £1k....

MPL50B 12V Battery Charger - Traction Direct

The MPL50B charger has been designed with the latest JLR workshop standards in mind. Suitable for most common battery types – Ca/Ca, Ca/Ag, AGM, GEL and conventional lead acid. The MPL50B features Traction’s patented desulphation technology ensuring the battery is in peak condition before commenci

traction-direct.co.uk

Arc Welding, Battery Chargers & Body Repair | GYS

GYS is a French family-owned manufacturing group that engineers, designs and sells arc welding, collision repair and automotive battery service equipment.

www.gys-welding.com

PRO120

40-230

www.ctek.com

Automotive Chargers – Exclusive for the Volkswagen Group

These special chargers for starter batteries designed in each case after functional requirements receive after permission of Volkswagen a VAS tool number and distribute world-wide by workshop equipment exclusively to the Volkswagen Group.

www.akkuteam.de

Some vehicle diagnostics will not just warn, but abort programming if the voltage at the control module isn't above 12.5VDC...

 

[voipio]

The thing I do notice about the large sealey charger is that it's maybe not as dumb as I thought either.

It does turn itself down on the amp meter to virtually zero when a battery is fully charged. Which it also refers to in the manual

View attachment 476317

Curious as to what sort of control strategy it might have to lower the charge itself? Or maybe it's that the transformer responds to matching its rated output with the battery.

EDIT- AI to the rescue!

A transformer battery charger often slows down or "tapers off" towards the end of a charging cycle because as the battery voltage rises closer to the charger's output voltage, the current drawn by the battery decreases, resulting in a reduced power transfer from the transformer, causing the charging process to slow down significantly

It would be interesting to know what the charger's output voltages are at the various control knob settings, including start mode, with the charger leads disconnected.

The instructions are not very informative in this regard.

 

[Bobupndown]

We have these in the shop. We got bored on day and read the manual. according to it, If it has to do it's job, it effectively destroys itself.

Not understanding this?