Car Air Con

[supaimpy]

I know the PAG oil is specific to PHEV & EV's. But not convinced about the gas situation, As the early Prius models would have been using R134A & newer models are moving over to 1234YF

PAG is used in R134A systems by compressor types nothing to do with PHEV or EV, the electric compressors generally use POE derivative, new vehicles seeking type approval cannot use R134a although the change is very slow and R1234yf being in a new flammable gas category should only be put in systems where the connections are external to the cabin area and the systems have to meet far higher leak test requirements.

1234YF 6kg is around £400 + VAT atm & 12kg of R134A is £300 upwards + VAT

Yes R1234yf bottle gets chained up in the workshop , R134A due to a cutback in production and I'm convinced stock piling by some suppliers has risen dramatically in price

 

[Ashley Burton]

Pag is the oil in all 134 systems isn't it?

They also use it in the 1234YF systems, But it has to be compatible.

Yes R1234yf bottle gets chained up in the workshop , R134A due to a cutback in production and I'm convinced stock piling by some suppliers has risen dramatically in price

They are driving the price up on R134A due to increase in Tax & they want to push the market towards 1234YF. Same situation when R12 went to R134A

 

[Barlidge]

Having given up on my galaxy air con years ago after replacing all the pipes and seals and it still leaking after a couple of months, today reading this thread and the current weather I decided to give the leak stop a go. So on the way home from work I picked up 2 tins of refrigerant and a tin of the leak stop (I already had the trigger from way back). 2 tins of refrigerant (£31 each less £10 refund on the bottle) and 1 leak stop (£15.99) with the trade card so £57.99 all in. The refrigerant says net contents of 510g, the gal with its twin aircon requires 1050 + 50g oil so 2 tins should have just about filled it, however both full cans weighed 1255g full and once empty 845g so I was only getting 400g out of each one. Its working now so will see how it goes.

 

[Justme]

I know the PAG oil is specific to PHEV & EV's. But not convinced about the gas situation, As the early Prius models would have been using R134A & newer models are moving over to 1234YF



1234YF 6kg is around £400 + VAT atm & 12kg of R134A is £300 upwards + VAT

It comes as a ready mix in DIY refills.

 

[Ashley Burton]

It comes as a ready mix in DIY refills.

Unbelievable!

Because they're isn't several types of PAG oil for different types of compressor setup or anything...

 

[supaimpy]

Having given up on my galaxy air con years ago after replacing all the pipes and seals and it still leaking after a couple of months, today reading this thread and the current weather I decided to give the leak stop a go. So on the way home from work I picked up 2 tins of refrigerant and a tin of the leak stop (I already had the trigger from way back). 2 tins of refrigerant (£31 each less £10 refund on the bottle) and 1 leak stop (£15.99) with the trade card so £57.99 all in. The refrigerant says net contents of 510g, the gal with its twin aircon requires 1050 + 50g oil so 2 tins should have just about filled it, however both full cans weighed 1255g full and once empty 845g so I was only getting 400g out of each one. Its working now so will see how it goes.

so no gas in the system and you just filled with whatever was in the can? hmmm the reason systems get evacuated is to remove air because air contains moisture and thats a killer for ac-ref systems, the moisture forms acids , so the next leak no amount of gunk will stop it as Ashley says 'Unbelieveable '

 

[Barlidge]

so no gas in the system and you just filled with whatever was in the can? hmmm the reason systems get evacuated is to remove air because air contains moisture and thats a killer for ac-ref systems, the moisture forms acids , so the next leak no amount of gunk will stop it as Ashley says 'Unbelieveable '

Hmm, not sure how to read the tone of that one - I'm well aware of why it gets evacuated, until recently this was only a backup car that's done 200k miles, that's only recently changed temporarily due to personal circumstances. The car isn't worth spending any serious money on it that's not needed to keep it legal, safe and running. Air con is a luxury and the current climate is unusual so if the leak fix works then happy days and if it doesn't and clogs the air con system up then I'l go back to opening the windows. And no I didn't dump it into an empty system, it was filled with enough gas to allow the compressor to kick in then the leak sealer was added and then topped off with the remaining refrigerant.

 

[supaimpy]

those Halfords type cans make a mockery of the F gas regs as if it needs topping up it has a leak , if it has a leak you are not allowed to recharge it thats my issue and as I am registered as a gas handler if I get caught knowily charging a system with a history of leaks without adequate prove of testing the fine can be life changing or even custodial

 

[Bsmith]

Bit off topic but, do cars use more fuel when AC is in use and turned down to Lo?

 

[Pete.]

those Halfords type cans make a mockery of the F gas regs as if it needs topping up it has a leak , if it has a leak you are not allowed to recharge it thats my issue and as I am registered as a gas handler if I get caught knowily charging a system with a history of leaks without adequate prove of testing the fine can be life changing or even custodial

Do the regs cover johnny-at-home working on his own car?

 

[slim_boy_fat]

Bit off topic but, do cars use more fuel when AC is in use and turned down to Lo?

As I understand it, yes. But the difference is perhaps 1 - 2 mpg [], so worth it for the comfort imo.
Having it on all the time is best, it also helps with demisting etc..

 

[Ashley Burton]

those Halfords type cans make a mockery of the F gas regs as if it needs topping up it has a leak , if it has a leak you are not allowed to recharge it thats my issue and as I am registered as a gas handler if I get caught knowily charging a system with a history of leaks without adequate prove of testing the fine can be life changing or even custodial

I agree its ridiculous!

Bit off topic but, do cars use more fuel when AC is in use and turned down to Lo?

As mentioned its very minimal

 

[Wallace]

As mentioned its very minimal

Modern stuff maybe but a York V twin takes a few hp to run on idle!

 

[supaimpy]

actually if you factor in the drag of driving with the window open , the power to run the compressor and extra alternator output its probably more fuel efficent to run the AC

the f gas regs apply to anyone, there is no amateur or home status , the closest is a trainee under supervision, and the reason they accept the return of the cylinder against a deposit, well thats because strictly the sale of disposal cylinders is also illegal unless it old stock I forget the manufacture date at the moment

 

[Wallace]

Good job I didn’t cut the tops off a couple of disposable bottles, fill them with scrap metal and give them to the scrapman.

 

[supaimpy]

Non-refillable Containers EU F gas Regulation Article 9.1. The placing on the market of non-refillable containers filled after 4th July 2007 is banned. This is a very important obligation for the car servicing industry. Historically the use of non-refillable containers to supply HFC 134a for car servicing was very common. This is no longer permitted. There may continue to be some non-refillable containers sold whilst stocks filled before 4th July 2007 are used up. However, you should take steps to ensure that you are not being illegally supplied with containers filled after that date

4.2 Leak Checking and Repair MAC Directive Article 6.3 The EU F gas Regulation does not require leak checks to be carried out on MACs. However, there is an important obligation in the MAC Directive that applies to companies and personnel servicing all MAC equipment on cars and car-derived vans: Service providers are not allowed to refill a system if it has shown abnormal leakage until the cause of leakage is identified and the necessary repair has been completed. The Motor Vehicles (Refilling of Air Conditioning Systems by Service Providers) Regulations 2009 (SI 2009/2194) prescribe offences and penalties applicable to infringements of the MAC Directive. The Regulations state that, in determining whether the amount of refrigerant that has leaked from an air conditioning system is abnormal, regard should be paid, in particular, to the following: • Whether a reasonably competent service provider would consider the leak to be abnormal; • Any information provided by the manufacturer to the user of the vehicle, in particular information contained in the owner’s manual; and • Any requirements as to the design, construction and equipment which were applicable to the vehicle for the purpose of permitting its registration, sale or entry into service as a new vehicle.

Just so we are clear , the Halford type bottles should be refillable to be legal, and then the requirement reference checking and repairing , so most cheap recharge places technically break the law by just regassing and sending you on your way