Can A Repaired Ladder Chassis Be Safe?

[stormin]

I am constantly amazed at what so called "proffesionals" do when faced with the prospect of welding a car. My mum recently took her 4 year old KA to Ford main dealer for it's annual service and MOT, they said it needed welding to front suspension mount so did it and charged £100 for it. I was curious as to what they'd done so removed the 1/2" of underseal to see a crude patch slapped across a bit of rust with partially completed welds with no penetration. It performed no structual reinforcement and the rust was still there between two spotwelded seams. I was so mad I took it down to the service department and demanded to speak to whoever had done it for an explanation. The manager wouldn't let me speak to them and as far as he was concerned I had nothing to complain about as the car had passed the MOT. I suggested that I'd have ground to complain to VOSA as it wasn't a fully seam welded repair and shouldn'tve passed but he wouldn't comment.

So why didn't you go and raise the matter with VOSA and trading standards? I assume it was the main dealer who did the MOT as well if so they should have their licence removed.

And structural corrosion on a four year old car is ridiculous, has it been parked in the sea

I see Ford haven't seen fit to improve their quality even when the far east opposition is offering longer and longer warranties.

 

[cbjroms]

Bit of thread creep there!

Stormin - I think that the Sammio concept is great and don't want my foolish choice of welder to repair my chassis to reflect on the company and its ideas.

Whilst the Sammio Spyder sits on a Triumph Herald chassis the company has options for a range of donors including some for which a new chassis is available.

I guess that there are loads of cars on the road which have had poor quality repairs made to structural components. The question for me is whether I am prepared to take the risk and increase this number by 1! Given the comments above I would not be comfortable doing this.

Sounds like my chassis needs to go for scrap and another one found.

Thanks

Chris

 

[stormin]

Bit of thread creep there!

Stormin - I think that the Sammio concept is great and don't want my foolish choice of welder to repair my chassis to reflect on the company and its ideas.

Whilst the Sammio Spyder sits on a Triumph Herald chassis the company has options for a range of donors including some for which a new chassis is available.

I guess that there are loads of cars on the road which have had poor quality repairs made to structural components. The question for me is whether I am prepared to take the risk and increase this number by 1! Given the comments above I would not be comfortable doing this.

Sounds like my chassis needs to go for scrap and another one found.

Thanks

Chris

I wouldn't say your current chassis is beyond saving with decent repair, in fact it may be structurally sound with good penetration on the welds, but it doesn't look the best.

Re the Sammio kits as far as I can see this is the list of kits and donor chassis:
Sammio Spyder - Tiumph Herald Chassis
Sammio 550 - VW Beetle Floorpan
Sammio G46 - Reliant Scimitar Chassis
Sammio Chevaux - Citroen 2cv Chassis
The only new metal they seem to show is the "spacframe" support for the fibreglass bodies and some sill strengtheners for the beetle floorpan.

 

[cbjroms]

I am in Hampshire - anyone recommend someone who I could talk to about getting a 'decent repair' done?

Thanks

Chris

 

[cumbriasteve]

I think before ripping it all off and starting again I would try to identify how strong it is at the moment, most of the comments have been about the weld appearance and it is of course possible to have a strong yet not very nice finished patch.

I think it boils down to 2 things, a welded patch that will do the job or a weld repair that is nicely done and looks good or even better can't be seen, yours is certainly not the latter but may be fit for use, I suspect it is still better than a lot of patched chassis that are passing their MOT with ease.

 

[Shox Dr]

That chassis looks to have been repaired in the past. The "new" welds look to have signs of white soot. This is usually from using zinc treated sheet, but the sheet used to repair looks to be bare. A bit more to this than first meets the eye. Better pictures would help.

As for using a chassis in the condition it is, even if it is repaired to a good standard for what is in essence a "new car" is IMHO questionable.

 

[KemppiFrog]

Had a look at their site. Using old chassis gets round the 'age' regs and allows exempt status. So a fresh chassis would mean lots of inspections and cost.
The 2CV is the only car where new chassis are off the shelf at reasonable cost. About €650 up to €850 for galvanized. Acceptable to to German TUV standards. ( Not counting Lotus, who also have new chassis makers. Have I missed anybody?)
KF

I have to say that my experience in the UK is a bit old. When we built a car, we invited local plod up to look at it. He asked about the chassis plate, which we had made up, signed the form, and we were good to get road registered. No further checks. As the car was very low, the headlights were behind the front wheels and popped up from hatches to meet the 24" regulation. But they tended to get in ones line of vision and glared off the back of the front wheel arches. So we cross eyed them..... No way you can get away with that now. And quite right too.
Here in France, kit cars as you know it are not on. Only 2CV derivates and VW buggies, plus the odd Renault 4 'Plein Air' conversion. Essentially body conversions on existing chassis..

 

[keith19]

TVR?
http://www.rtracing.co.uk/content/tvr-chassis.html

 

[KemppiFrog]

TVR?
http://www.rtracing.co.uk/content/tvr-chassis.html

Like I said, I have been out of it for a long time. I had a G15 for a while, and it was quite the nicest handling car I have owned.

Nice to see that there are people keeping the marks alive. But I have to say that I swopped my G15 with a friend's TVR for a week (1600 Ford powered) and he didn't want to give it back. Plus I found the TVR a bit clunky. Another friend had a TVR Griffith (?) with the ally body and V8 engine. That was something else.... His previous car was a Gorden Keeble.....I didn't realise how rare they were until recently.

 

[keith19]

Yes, Ginettas' were always known for nice smooth handling. I think they got the balance just right with the G15. There's something about highly-tuned small-engined cars which sets them apart from the big-engined brutes, at least so far as handling goes. Perhaps not so reliable, not so strong, but often well-balanced, and so lovely to drive.

So far as the TVR chassis goes, it was always a strong one. But badly let down by a complete lack of factory rustproofing. The outriggers sometimes only lasted two or three years, and they were 16 gauge I think, 1.6 mm. The legend was that if you got caught out in the rain and put the car away wet, you had to take it out on the first decent day to dry it out again. Certainly standing wet in a closed garage did them no good at all...

 

[KemppiFrog]

We are drifting a bit here, but, I remember the TVR being crash tested into a block and it was drivable afterwards. The spare was up front and absorbed the shock.
I must check up on a mate in Norfolk, last time I saw him, he was starting a Peerless restoration and explained the rules on how much of the chassis needed to be original to qualify for exempt status. It wasn't much, just a cross-member or two. Which might be an idea for the OP. The Herald chassis wasn't very stiff to start with. The GT6 2L was a bit squirmy in fast corners on much the same frame.
KF
Correction to the earlier post: It was a TVR Trident, quite a beast. 4.7 Ford V8

 

[Shox Dr]

As I understand it. It works on a points system. 15 points been divided between. Running gear, Wheels, Chassis, Body. You need at least 9 points to keep the docs. Any less and it get a different plate/docs

 

[Morris]

As I understand it. It works on a points system. 15 points been divided between. Running gear, Wheels, Chassis, Body. You need at least 9 points to keep the docs. Any less and it get a different plate/docs

Close! Chassis counts for 5 points and must be standard, no cut out crossmemembers etc. You can add re-inforcing etc but check with VOSA as to what is allowable. Body counts for now't. You need 8 points.
Axles (both) are 2 points, steering is 2, suspension is 2, engine 1 and gearbox 2. I think those are correct from memory.

 

[troppo]

You guys have a great system over there, cant do any of that change parts over but keep the rego etc over here. A locost or westfield has to be up 2011ADR`s (Australian Deign Rules) and cant use older engines. From what i`ve seen on TV i could have a blast over there building cars

 

[kelsham]

Looking through my old motor repair books on repairing chassis, I see that they advise that not all sides of a repair patch are welded. Something to do with allowing the chassis to still flex.
This seems to be disregarded these days, any comments?

Regards Kels.

 

[troppo]

Looking through my old motor repair books on repairing chassis, I see that they advise that not all sides of a repair patch are welded. Something to do with allowing the chassis to still flex.
This seems to be disregarded these days, any comments?

Regards Kels.

Yeah, you need to allow flex or your going to have problems. With all the thoughts i`ve read here and the pics you`ve shown us, in my opinion you really only have two choices
1/ find someone who can construct and fit whole new sections which will require a jig.
2/ get yourself a repop or another decent second hand chassis

The rust looks to be around the load bearing points of the chassis (but then i dont know anything about TVRs they really dont exist down here) so i would make sure you REALLY fixed it right even if just for the sake of your own safety

 

[keith19]

Looking through my old motor repair books on repairing chassis, I see that they advise that not all sides of a repair patch are welded. Something to do with allowing the chassis to still flex.
This seems to be disregarded these days, any comments?

Regards Kels.

Yes, we were taught that way back in the 1970's. Also it was reckoned that if several patches were needed in a section of chassis, it was better to replace the whole section, which ensured a degree of torsional rigidity not far removed from the original.
Sections - usually original repair sections, or top-hat with a plate on top - were only fully seam welded, often with a butt joint, at the two ends where they joined the original chassis.

Seam welding long plates together onto a chassis, joined at the edges, was frowned upon, especially if you used four to make a long box section. The seam welds apparently made for a stiffer section in a chassis that was supposed to have had a certain amount of designed-in flexibility.
Even top plate repairs to top hat on van chassis were not supposed to be fully seamed, but the general rule then was one inch welded one inch missed. Nearer to us in time it got to be two inches welded, one inch missed. Now everything has to be fully seamed? Is this because there are no chassis engineers left, or because they've discovered it doesn't matter?

 

[KemppiFrog]

I have always worked to the idea that chassis should be as stiff as possible, otherwise your suspension ideas are a waste of time. Lotus worked on this theme. Esp with damping. The Elan steel chassis was a quick fix to get it into production. It was supposed to be a GRP monocoque, like the Elite.
Bit of history: Aston Martin were having trouble in the pre WW2 days with cracks in the frame. Asked an engineer to sort it. He made it more flexible to avoid the stress points that were failing. But this is not a recipe for modern frames.
KF

 

[troppo]

I have always worked to the idea that chassis should be as stiff as possible, otherwise your suspension ideas are a waste of time. Lotus worked on this theme. Esp with damping. The Elan steel chassis was a quick fix to get it into production. It was supposed to be a GRP monocoque, like the Elite.
Bit of history: Aston Martin were having trouble in the pre WW2 days with cracks in the frame. Asked an engineer to sort it. He made it more flexible to avoid the stress points that were failing. But this is not a recipe for modern frames.
KF

Thats always the problem, a chassis needs to be a little flexible or it will tear at stress pionts but still be stiff enough to allow for decent handling. A rock hard chassis might work for a 10kph rock crawler but will **** itself eventually on the road. Look at the body mods done to the group 4 mkII escorts, they DIDNT seam weld the subframes because there would be no flex. They are stich welded allowing for the flexibility to prevent the body tearing itself apart

 

[PhillipM]

You don't want flex in the frame - you make it as stiff as you can - but what you need to account for is the whole thing needs to be stiff from one end to the other, if you have a much weaker/stiffer area than the surrounding metal, that takes all the initial flex itself, or forces it into the junction between them, it's going to crack.