Buying from China

[jordan1]

Sorry, I know your heart is in the right place , but years of buying spare parts for classic motorcycles supposedly made in England , complete with lovely union flag stickers and "made in England" on the wrapper and then it turns out the stuff was made in China, India, Taiwan or somewhere else has made me wary of where things are made, because often they are not. Buy a new Bridgeport mill or Colchester lathe , where are they made ? yup china.

http://www.aliexpress.com/

Nothing to do with where my heart is, I just live in the real world like most other people.

 

[ronan]

Nothing to do with where my heart is, I just live in the real world like most other people.

Well if want real world, survival of the fittest and all that, then most businesses will move off to the far east and china where wages are a fraction (around a sixth or less) of European and american wages , energy prices are lower , material prices are lower, industrial rent is lower , taxes are lower , less workers rights, and a more flexible trained labour market (how many apprentices have been trained in industry in Britain in the past two decades compared to the previous 3 ?). Bottom line is when there are big profits to be made patriotism etc fly's out the window. That's the real world.

 

[jordan1]

Well if want real world, survival of the fittest and all that, then most businesses will move off to the far east and china where wages are a fraction (around a sixth or less) of European and american wages , energy prices are lower , material prices are lower, industrial rent is lower , taxes are lower , less workers rights, and a more flexible trained labour market (how many apprentices have been trained in industry in Britain in the past two decades compared to the previous 3 ?). Bottom line is when there are big profits to be made patriotism etc fly's out the window. That's the real world.

I wonder if they have strikes, walk outs, go slows, boycotts and protests, long weekends and sickies etc. over there, I doubt it. The British workforce as a whole, in the not so distant past, was its own enemy. left the door wide open to imports such as we are seeing today. When they go to work they work as they should, which has got to be admired IMO.

 

[rtbcomp]

A friend of mine ran a cutlery/engineering company which dated back to the 1700s, it was dragged kicking and screaming into the 19th century, went bust in the 20th (they were still using line shafts) and in the 21st century the guy is working in the toolroom for a modern engineering company with all the hi-tech stuff and modern working practices and making a profit - it's German owned though

 

[arceyered]

I wonder if they have strikes, walk outs, go slows, boycotts and protests, long weekends and sickies etc. over there, I doubt it. The British workforce as a whole, in the not so distant past, was its own enemy. left the door wide open to imports such as we are seeing today. When they go to work they work as they should, which has got to be admired IMO.

I agree that was part of the problem
But when I worked at Norton Villiers building the Norton Commando we worked on machines built in 1920 pushing bikes along roller tracks .
Johnny Honda had Brand new cnc machines etc and goverment backing we didn't stand a chance.
Also why was land rover on it's knees untill tata took it over same workers different management, You are wrong to blame it on the shopfloor workers all the time. Most of our Management teams are useless
Follow the money who are the rich fat cats?

 

[cecotto479]

The most successful privately owned company in the UK? JCB. Still run by autocratic businessmen not boards of accountants.

Compare these two companies from my personal experience, having done work for both.

JCB do not build a single digger until the order is confirmed and it is paid for - in full. If the dealer doesn't pay with order it doesn't get built until he pays for it.

They crucify suppliers. We had to show full and complete disclosure in our bid - including the profit we planned to make. Their accountants who scrutinised our bid, told us informally we couldn't afford to work for JCB. We didn't have the reserve capital to cope with their payment system. They were right. Every invoice was queried. A query on one line of a 200 line invoice blocks the payment of the whole invoice. Invoices were paid in 45 days nett from the date of approval.

Stop the production line and you'll have Sir Anthony's helicopter landing in your yard within the hour - ask me how I know.

I heard this from a senior manager. He and Sir Anthony were walking into the office. He saw a newish Bentley in the visitors' car park. (He's a huge classic car buff. His blue chip collection and enthusiasm knows no bounds - D Type, Carrera RS, 250 GTO engine in reception etc. etc.)

"Who does the Bentley belong to?", he asks the manager.
"Joe Bloggs. He supplies widgets for the backhoe line."
"Not any f@@@ing more he doesn't."

He immediately, unilaterally ordered that no more should be purchased from Bloggs (no fixed time or quantity supplier contracts, just open purchase orders) and, thanks to their ultra lean just in time ordering, the buyer had 48 hours to find an alternative supplier who had to be cheaper - thus confirming the buyer's original incompetence.

Imprest stock was controlled daily with daily reports, values and ordering and weekly reconciliations. Components were delivered three times per week at least. Some were delivered daily. Production was forecast 45 days in advance but could be changed at any time. But at 5 days it was fixed. If they wanted to put something on the line that wasn't forecast 5 days out, you weren't penalised if you couldn't supply.

Their computer systems were pre-historic. They worked.


A large truck manufacturer in Lancashire built lorries for stock. A lorry would be built and they'd hope they could sell it. The one in the stock park with the tree growing through its chassis is probably still there.

The buyers asked, "Can you do this for £xx? No? OK. What about £xx+5? No? OK. How much? £2xx? Deal."

Invoices were paid weekly and without deduction.

Imprest stock was uncontrolled. Annual or even biennial reconciliations usually resulted in huge losses and equally huge invoices being raised by suppliers and paid. Component stock holding was enormous. And mostly discontinued.

Production appears as though it was decided by the hour. Forecasts were produced fortnightly. Production never matched the forecast. Stock therefore had to be held to build everything just in case they decided to build it.

The production line stopped daily because of component shortages. Half built lorries were wheeled - provided wheels weren't the shortage because there were only a few sets of slaves - into the yard to be completed one day.

Their computer systems however were modern. Nobody could work them.

Which one went bust? Often.

 

[tlovatt]

Also why was land rover on it's knees untill tata took it over same workers different management, You are wrong to blame it on the shopfloor workers all the time. Most of our Management teams are useless
Follow the money who are the rich fat cats?

LR was not on its knees when sold to TATA, Ford were sad to see the comapny go, but they could not get rid of Jaguar on its own. Ford did a lot to sort out Land Rover, which at the time they purchased it had big quality problems and big staff problems. Ford sorted out the quality problems and did battle with the trade unions to get rid of a lot of the stupid working practices and poor productivity (There was a time when the main LR plant was threatened with modernise or close). The current sucess or LR is due to Ford, but sadly whilst they vastly improved quality they never managed to sort out the unions in Jaguar

Management (or lack thereof) was part of the problem, but so were the unions, look at Rover, after it was taken over thee unions went on strike multiple times for more money until the company went bust.

Whilst the unions have an important role in preventing the exploitation of staff, at times they have been allowed too much power and the country has suffered, how many times have you seen unions arguing for modernisation and efficency?

 

[Wedg1e]

cert of conformity

We've sourced products from China, made to our spec. (actually to ASME etc.) that have turned up with 'Certs of conformity' stating they were 316 stainless; 316 etched on the parts, included a chemical analysis etc. etc.
Sold some to a client, client back-heels them saying they're not 316.
We pay an inspection company to do PMI analysis, sure enough they're 304.
So now we're having to hire in a PMI set (at £250 a day) to check every single item we have in stock - and any that come in in future, as we obviously can't believe a word the 'Certs' say.

Other certs have claimed that the material was to such and such a hardness; when we compared the certs they tell us that their aluminium has the same hardness as 316 and Duplex Yeah, right. One cert, photocopied for every job. Other certs swear that the dimension of drilled holes is such-and-such, when there isn't a bloody hole anywhere in the part.

We tried UK suppliers and you wouldn't believe the difficulty we've had in getting materials certs from big-name metals suppliers. Sounds like they buy in from China and can't trust their certs either

 

[Wedg1e]

Sorry, I know your heart is in the right place , but years of buying spare parts for classic motorcycles supposedly made in England , complete with lovely union flag stickers and "made in England" on the wrapper and then it turns out the stuff was made in China, India, Taiwan or somewhere else has made me wary of where things are made, because often they are not. Buy a new Bridgeport mill or Colchester lathe , where are they made ? yup china.

http://www.aliexpress.com/

My ex-girlfriend's brother is (or was) a fitter for... a well-known supplier of machine tools, based somehere around Leicester or Hinckley, who can say
Run by an Indian gentleman whose modus operandi was to buy in machine tools from India, Taiwan etc., slap 'Made in England' over everything and then sell them, often back to the same countries they came from.
Their website even used to have 'British made' in big text but that has now been taken down, I wonder why
They sold a bandsaw to Jaguar: it had an in-built blade welder that never worked properly. In the end, to keep Jag sweet they had to buy-in a 'proper' blade welder - that cost more than they'd paid for the bandsaw

 

[matt1978]

That post about the Certs rings true also with some of the welding equipment.

They will say it conforms to any norm you wish it too and stamp said norms onto the product and within the user manual. Duty cycles and Outputs are often very misleading too.

 

[brewdexta]

When I worked for BT we recruited a Chinese guy to be in charge of supplies. First day he started he disappeared, we looked throughout the stores, the telephone exchange, the mechanics workshop, everywhere, couldn't find him. In the end we assumed that the job didn't suit him and he had left so we went to admin block to speak to HR to start recruitment again. When the HR assistant opened the stationary cupboard to get the recruitment form, out jumps the new guy shouting Supplies!

I'll get my coat.

 

[Angusdog]

There was a case in the 80s where a NZ milk company sold a pasteurising machine to China. During transit, it was dented. Five years later, some guys from the same company on a visit to China saw a lot of those machines, with the same dent...

But don't estimate how fast China learns. Where were they 10 years ago? In 10 years time, there will still be dodgy operators, I imagine but these days will be long forgotten.