Buy A Tig Welder

[angman]

Hi Guys,

Hope not much of a pain for you!Any hope about my request?
Just want to ask what your opinion about lincoln Inverters?
Now far higher than my budget but I could wait for any ebay chanche.
Any suggestion about the Arcmaster 201TS(http://europe.thermadyne.com/therma...ID=2&SubCatID=2&ProdLineID=0&ProdID=64&brand=)

Can you compare Lincoln Brand with the Thermadyne one?
Where Lincoln make their inverters?
What your opinion about the Lincoln Invertec® 170S 230/1/50-60 (http://www.lincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.aspx?p=112617)

Between Arcmaster 201TS and Lincoln Invertec® 170S what you will chose?

To many questions !

Thanks in advance

 

[Country Joe]

Well, the Thermadyne has HF start, the Lincoln has scratch/lift start. Also, the Lincoln seems to have a better duty cycle at the higher end of it's range. But then we're not quite comparing like with like, as they obviously have different outputs.
It seems the Thermadyne is 20-25% at it's top end (200A), the Lincoln is 80% at it's top end of 160A.

These folk seem to like their Invertecs (different model, I realise), but I've not heard much about either one to be honest, and definitely haven't used either!

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=9196

I think I'd go for the Lincoln, but I'm not entirely sure why (I'm not entirely sober either, right now - so might well change my mind)

I expect there will be someone who has used one of these on the forum, and can give a much fuller opinion than me.

All the Best,
CJ

 

[angman]

CJ HF start and scratch/lift start, is it much difference?Which more preferable and convenience from the two, in the industry?
Do you have any idea if Lincoln make its Welders in Europe or if it is also Chinese made?
Even to purchase a welder I do have undestand that has to do with its specs.But from my expireince from other stuff it has to do also with the Brands.
If Thermadyne one wasn't China made I will be really happy to purchase as Thermal ARc is part of the Thermadyne a really reliable USA Brand .I have bought a Turbotorch product,and really pleased with its quality!
Anyway I have narrow down my list to the following Brands, hoping to find a bargain in Ebay:

Miller (To expensive for my budget , so I will have to skip)

Lincoln
Lorch
Esab
Kerppi
Murrex

CJ or any other from the forum, if you have any other Brand in your mind that I could consider please feel free to post.
Any suggestion is really welcome!

All the Best to you all Guys!!!

 

[Country Joe]

Hi Angman, this is my take on arc initiation...

Scratch start - You have to drag the tungsten along the work-piece to start the arc.
I would imagine this method might just contaminate your tungsten.

Lift start - I think you can just go very close to the work-piece (maybe about 1mm?) to start the arc.
I would think that would be a better option than dragging as you don't touch the tungsten on the work-piece.

HF start - Zaps into life seemingly on it's own when you press the switch to start the arc, Uses a very high voltage and some other scientific magic (to do with ionising gases?).
This seems easiest as you don't need any special technique (not that it's difficult to master the other ways of initiating an arc!) Also I expect using this method, you don't get through so many tungstens!

Others might see this differently, so should feel free to correct/add more info!

Must admit, I've not come across Turbotorch, but then maybe I lead a relatively sheltered life! What do they make? (One word answers like "Torches", aren't allowed!) Euro torches, gas torches, led penlights?

Meanwhile, back on track!
All those brands you mentioned are known to be good makers, and I doubt you could go far wrong with any of them.
I wouldn't rule Miller out immediately on price, as all the manufacturers you list are within the "same league", to my mind.

I've just had a quick look on e-bay, and couldn't see anything from those manufacturers on sale right now within the £5-600 range, but I'd keep an eye out, as you never know.

Not wanting to sound like an advert, but you do worse than taking a look at the Inverter Fusion units from the shop at the top of the page:-

http://www.weldequip.com/inverter-fusion-tig.htm

The DC version comes in just under £600, is made here in the UK (in Honiton, Devon), weighs nothing, and has a 2 year warranty. Mine looks the same, but has only one control instead of three, though. But more to the point, it welds like a (completely silent*) dream in DC mode, so I'd guess this one would too. (I'm nothing to do with IFL, by the way!)
I think a couple of other forum members might have something similar too? I think "IronDarren" on here, had one. It looked truly battered to hell, but still worked fine.
Put it this way, I'd keep the one I have before I went for anything else on your list, I know I'm biased.....and I'm also used to IFL's, but it does work so very well in TIG & MMA modes, and I wouldn't like to "learn" or get used to another machine, if the truth be known.
To top it all, Steve, who runs the outfit, is a decent fellow to deal with, quite helpful, and knows his stuff.

I do feel like an advert now, but I'm sort of a positive review too, if you see what I mean!
But I have nothing to do with the shop, either - even if I do sound like I work there!
I see it's at a reduced price at the moment, too!
(Still don't work there, Honest!)

Yeah, maybe time to add IFL to your list!

Hey, ho!
Gotta go,
CJ

*As opposed to AC, which seems comparatively noisy! But I guess they're all like that!
PS. Don't think the DC version has HF start.

 

[angman]

Hi CJ!Really thanks for the info,it is pretty clear now for me!I just check the Lincoln again (I know not sober that day) but the 80% of Lincoln at it's top end of 160A it is @ 20°C .At 40°C it is 160A @ 35%,so presume pretty low if you think that Thermal Arc 201 TS is 100% @ 100A all that at 40°C!What you think?
Turbotorch (http://www.thermadyne.com/turbotorch).

CJ I check the Fusion.Truly,my first intention was that, this is a toyIt seems like a small plastic suitcase.Then I said CJ seems from his ways,a nice and decent Guy, and if he suggest something then it should be value there!
I check the specs and I have to state that even I have fail in love with the Lorch Tigs and the Lincoln one (probably the Red color it is ) it seems really high in terms of the duty cycle .To be honest I haven't found till now something in that price with this specs.Not know how these Guys have achieved that.Anyway it seems really Good Piece equipment.The actual company gives only 24 months of warranty if you check their site that this something not make me happy to be honest.I assume the extra 1 year is cover by the weldequip, not the IFL?
The Box in yours is it plastic or steel CJ?
Also do you know the cost for the spares for example for the board that seems to be the issue in most Tig Welders even the very expensive ones!
Something last.
What is the Main difference between the MMA Machines that take Tig and the actual Tig Machines?

Enjoy you night Mate
All the best and many thanks again for your time and advice.Apprec.

 

[Country Joe]

PS. Don't think the DC version has HF start.

Got that wrong, they do have HF start on the DC versions.

Re. Turbotorch, see what you mean! Never come across them before. All the one's I've seen tend to be called "PortaPacks"?

The Thermadyne looks ok, I guess, but I don't know why the duty cycle isn't better than it is. As far as I can tell, the warranty is 2 years on both the thermadyne & the Fusion. I think the 2 years are from the manufacturer, regardless of where you get it from.

The link I have for the Thermadyne says "2 Year Limited Warranty", not too sure what it's limited to, though.

http://www.migtigarc.co.uk/TIG_Welder/Thermal_Arc_Arcmaster_201TS/thermal_arc_arcmaster_201ts.html

The IFL is 2 yrs Parts & Labour, so I'd guess any circuit boards would be covered anyway, but I've no idea what any of the various boards or parts would cost.

The casing on mine is made of Nylon, but it's seems extremely tough, definitely not delicate. I think you'd need a decent blow with a hammer to crack it, but I haven't tried this myself, you understand.
I doesn't even seem to mind the leads being connected the wrong way around, either. It will happily evaporate tungsten after tungsten until you realise! (Don't ask me how I know this!)

As far as I know, all inverters can be used for MMA too. You can connect a tig torch to other MMA sets that aren't made to be TIG's, but you'd need to rig up some kind of a control for the gas, I think, as it may not be catered for.

Hope this helps,
All the Best,
CJ

 

[angman]

The Thermadyne I have take it out of my list. To be honest CJ something is not look right there to me, even not a professional. The Guys, they try to impress us, as many other Companies. People with small knowledge in the field like me, easily failing in their trap .200 Amp but at 20%.The 100% is only in the 100 Amp. Very low duty cycle! The limited warranty also seems a trick from them, and obviously noone will answer this question but when an issue appears,there will not be any warranty.
This is the link from the IFL.
http://www.inverterfusion.co.uk/Tig_Welding_200HF.htm
Mate clearly state 24 months there. Anyway I have really put it very high in my list,really good stuff on it. Only dislike the nylon case to be honest, even assume this reduce the weight of it .It is a point there .I think is something that IFL should consider in the future. R-Tech case was better only issue the 240V. Something else what is going on with Argon Cylinders.Is it consuming this Inverter from your experience?

Many Thanks CJ
Enjoy your night, hope not much of a pain !

 

[Country Joe]

Angman,
The casing really isn't a big deal. Sort of nice in a way that it's not conductive. You'd have to see/touch one to feel how solid they are, I guess. Still, quite solid, though!
As stated on your link, it's designed for site work, so is quite sturdy & well made.
(Still don't work there!)
The gas thing? They all use pure argon. The flow rate (amount you use) would be the same on any make, really. You tend to adjust post flow etc, according to your amp setting. But would follow the same guide-line amount, regardless of make or type, inverter or transformer based.

All the Best,
CJ

 

[carl0s]

The non-generic nylon/plastic case is a big attraction for me on the IFL inverters. The only thing I don't like is that the AC units look like they're a generation behind the DC units with regard to the control panel.

 

[angman]

I see what you mean carl0s.Personally I like simplicity but this going really far.It is a pity because the specs as Country Joe state and I also check of their machines are really good above the stand and I could say that they compete with big brands.With the first glance they look really cheap.Again the guys from IFL they should consider I think the design!
Country Joe or any other, have you heard a Brand with the name Stamos?
Any good?

 

[Country Joe]

Hi there, Angman.
Been in Newcastle for a couple of days, so missed a couple of posts.
Went quite close to Manchester - should've brought it with me, then you could have seen what I mean!
I can't remember where I heard this, but I definitely remember being told that the casing was the result of some quite expensive & time-consuming development, of which I think they were (justifiably) quite proud.
Trust me on this one, it's more of a plus than a minus!

The control on the front does make it seem a bit simple, but that's not a bad thing, either. It does press in, as well as turning, which takes you through the various menus/settings. None of which are all that complicated. The user guide is about 60 A4 pages, though. If you feel the need to see what it says, their website will let you download a PDF copy of it. It explains everything extremely clearly, which makes a change from the usual brief, uninformative offerings I've seen before, from some other manufacturers.

I've only heard of Stamos welders on this forum, this link might be of some help:-

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=13345

All the Best,
CJ

 

[gavuk]

I've only used the 200phf (dc) unit ,we had one at work was a very nice welder,although i think we had a replacement torch with current control.Used daily by the maintenance crew and contractors on arc and mostly stainless tig,don't be fooled by the simple controls ,as Joe says the menu is rotary and push button ,very easy to use and a good price

 

[angman]

Many thanks CJ! Really pitty, but I am also abroad at the moment till the end of the month.I do understand what you mean about the design and really pleased that you are happy with it.This is make it easier for someone to chose between so many options!I checked the link!I want to ask you, about the Typical Input Fuse Rating, that stating 22SB.This is mean that I need a 22A plug,to run the Welder? As this it is an issue really.Thanks gavuk happy to see that more people have use this tool and there are really happy!I have to admit that I have never heard this Brand so really good that some people stand in it for it .
Ah CJ I contact with Dylan from R-Tech and there no problem to use their Welders abroad."£)V and 240V is not an issue,he state to me
So R-Tech is another option

 

[Country Joe]

Ahoy there, Angman!
I've seen the list of "Technical Specifications", and the fuse that you mention would be inside the casing, right where the power enters the unit. I say this because I definitely don't have a fuse in the 32A plug that I have on the welder. The blue industrial plugs (16A and 32A) don't have a fuse inside them.
I'm guessing this is just the company letting you know what you'd find inside, and what kind of rating fuse you'd replace it with.
32 SB suggests to me that it'll be a 32 Amp Slow Blow fuse, probably because a normal (quick blow?) fuse might blow upon striking up an arc.
I'd take a look inside and photograph it for you, but the unit works just fine, and it seems to me the fuse isn't going to blow on me, if it hasn't already, so I just tend to not even think about it. I suppose if it suddenly stopped I'd be able to dig around, find the fuse, and replace it, (especially now that I know it's rating, before I've even looked inside!) but I'd be wary of prodding about inside a unit that works fine already!

As you can see, mine has a blue 32A plug on it, because the supply outlet in the garage is a 32A socket, but I'm guessing that I could have got away with a normal household plug if I didn't turn it up too high. I do have an adapter too, so that I could also plug it into a 16A supply. I think I also have a 16A - 13A adapter, but I almost always have it plugged directly into a 32A outlet. The supply cable wires are quite chunky, and I've got a feeling it'd be quite a challenge to physically fit them into a domestic (13A) plug.

I've just re-read your post, and you mention a 22A plug. I've not come across a 22A plug, and don't think they exist. But I'd go for the "next one up" in rating, rather than going the other way, which would restrict you to using the lower settings. I would guess that if you were using it abroad, you'd have to use some kind of travel adapter, which might limit you to a domestic 13A. That would probably mean that you couldn't run the welder "flat out" when on your travels - regardless of the make of welder.

I can see your predicament - trying to narrow it down to a single machine, can become a bit of a nightmare when there are a few different welders "in the frame", so to speak, but you seem to have narrowed it down to these two, so in a way, the "hard yards" are behind you! Price, personal preferences/taste, and being confident in the supplier, seem to be a tricky obstacle, sometimes.

Both the R-tech and the IFL quote a 22A input, so no real difference there.
As far as I can tell, aside from any duty cycle differences:-

The R-tech is larger in size, and weighs twice as much, at 18 kg, as compared to 9 kg for the IFL, but I wouldn't know how much difference that would make to you.
The R-tech wants a 8 KVA generator (with AVR- Automatic Voltage Regulation), where my IFL wants an 8 KVA "asynchronous" generator. If only I knew what "asynchronous" meant! If anyone reading this does know, what "asynchronous" means - please say, as I've always wanted to know!

I must admit, I can't see anything saying where they're made on the R-tech website, but that might just be that I've not looked for long enough, or maybe that info is just hard to find.

I know where the IFL's are made, as I used to have to go to Honiton (Devon) on a daily basis, so maybe that made them feel a "safer bet", in my mind! In fact I don't know if I'd heard of R-tech when I bought it, but it's not one of those instances where I find I'm kicking myself for not hunting about more, as I'd make the same choice again, today.

When you take the VAT into account, there may not be a massive difference in price, though having said that, the IFL with pulse facility costs a bit more than the "non pulse" version.

Confidence in the supplier is a personal thing, I suppose. I've heard that R-tech live up to their word when it comes to after sales back-up, so that doesn't seem a massive issue, here. I have more confidence in Steve (WeldEquip)!
I would imagine you'll see things differently, as you've spoken to Dylan at R-tech, (which I haven't!) and I've spoken to Steve(which I guess you haven't), and given the grief he had from me when I was in your situation, I know he's not just knowledgeable, but is tolerant of people like us, and seems to have the patience of a saint. I might well have been his most troublesome customer that year, but he never let on! As you're located in Manchester, he's not too far away from you, either.

Hope this helps,

All the Best,
CJ

Shot of my welder with the plug resting on top, and another of the power supply outlet.